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Old 03-17-2008, 06:24 AM   #21
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Default Re: Amozon hormonal advise

Yes,you are correct, Nate, equatorial birds in the wild do not use photoperiodism as their primary breeding trigger, they use weather and food availability (they are 'opportunistic' breeders and not 'seasonal' breeders as birds from temperate climates are). BUT as we cannot control these two triggers in captivity and they do readily revert to photoperiodism when exposed to marked seasonal differences in day length (there are a few studies done on equatorial birds specifically on this subject), it's the only way we have of controlling gonadal growth. Besides, blue fronts are not equatorial or even tropical parrots, they come from Argentina.
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:40 PM   #22
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Default Re: Amozon hormonal advise

Ah, interesting. Opportunistic breeding would be the better strategy for equatorials. I didn't know that they would change their strategy to seasonal breeding under different conditions, but it makes sense. Right, BFA's are from Bolivia, Paraguay, and northern Argentina, still in the neighborhood of the 0 to 20 degree latitude range I mentioned as being native for most Zons. Far enough from the equator to dictate seasonal breeding strategies, for sure.

So I wonder........if we were to keep them at a steady 12 hours of daylight year-round, would they adopt an opportunistic strategy, and what would that look like? Would the slightest change in living conditions or diet possibly throw them into breeding mode? Or would they be unable go opportunistic because of a lack of other stimuli? Would hormonal output be stagnated altogether?
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Old 03-17-2008, 01:49 PM   #23
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Default Re: Amozon hormonal advise

would opportunist behavior be part of the diet then? - not much we can do about the rain part.
'Abundance' of fruits/nuts may be an issue? - in our society we are able to offer lots of fruits year round.
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Old 03-17-2008, 04:16 PM   #24
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Default Re: Amozon hormonal advise

I would expect so, Jac. No doubt the diet they get from us is much richer in protein and nutrients than anything they'd get in the wild. Well, anything they'd get in the wild on a regular basis anyway. Of course, this impacts a whole lot more than hormonal behavior, crossing over into all sorts of health issues. I'd like to see more study into various species diet in the wild, including seasonal variations. Think I'll do some Googling.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: Amozon hormonal advise

That is an interesting question, Nate: whether seasonal breeders would become opportunistic breeders if exposed to long days all year round. Let's see... I know that seasonal breeders have a species-specific and genetic point of refractoriness so, as long as you hit it, they will have gonadal growth. And I know there are studies that show that half an hour either way can make all the difference (11.5 L/12.5 D versus 12.5 L/11.5 D) so it would have to be more than 12 hours of light and less than 12 hours of dark for them to breed. I also know that they don't breed if there isn't enough food. They might go through courtship, nesting and even laying but they will abandon the eggs or stop feeding the babies if they perceive the food supply not to be sufficient or adequate. I also know that there is no natural species that will lay all year round non-stop (the only ones that do it are domesticated species like chickens or doves) for the simple reason that they get depleted after a number of clutches and would eventually die (that's why cockatiels, lovebirds and other opportunistic breeding species in captivity become chronic layers and eggbound so easily) so I would assume that, yes, given the exact right conditions, they could become opportunistic breeders.

And yes, diet is a major trigger for captive birds from opportunistic breeding species because we feed them way too much protein.
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:38 PM   #26
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Default Re: Amozon hormonal advise

As a novice all the information from different experts seems to contradict each other and it is very confusing. This web site is saying to limit sugars and starches to control there hormones. Amazon Parrot Behavior Revealed
There are also many sites that say to limit proteins to help with hormones. I wonder if they have studded different species and that proteins effect one species and sugar and starches effect another, maybe depending on what foods were abundant in their natural habitat.
What is your opinion?
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:53 PM   #27
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Default Re: Amozon hormonal advise

Well, I think you could do worse than to figure that in the wild, proteins, starches and sugars are found in abundance on a somewhat limited and seasonal basis. Breeding and nesting behavior is usually directly tied to the arrival of abundant food supply. I think that holds true whether the habitat is tropical (rainy season vs. dry season) or temperate (spring-summer vs. fall-winter). I would think there must have been species specific studies done about natural foods, possibly with an eye to hormone production, but if not one could extrapolate perhaps.

Feeding the wrong type of diet for a given species can cause health impacts way beyond hormonal behavior, particularly for some. I'm thinking of Ekkies here, for instance. Their natural diet is very low in protein and many other nutrients, and a nutrient rich diet that might be suitable for other parrots can really wreak havoc on an Ekkie's system. I'm inclined to think that this may hold true for many other parrots as well, but just doesn't always manifest itself so dramatically as with Ekkies. Something I'd like to look into further.
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:27 PM   #28
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Default Re: Amozon hormonal advise

So maybe we should start a thread on proper diet alone? - special diet for each season or just Spring?

I personally am a tad confused. - sorry to sound so dim.
Many people use pellets or seed mixes. I do. I also add fresh greens for my little ones. Last spring I started offering more sprouts - it just kind of happened. Then Laker went into a serious molt & one member tried to help - suggesting the diet was too rich in proteins. I hate to be a dummy - I still don't really understand it all - it isn't sinking in somehow.

For a Zon - what is the best diet? does the diet change during the spring to help the bird & what is a reasonable recommendation? - what should be avoided or is it amounts?

For encouraging good feather - you want your bird in good health - is this another type of diet? I would 'think' the issues would be calcium & protein then.
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Old 03-18-2008, 07:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: Amozon hormonal advise

I do change the diet on a seasonal basis for instance we are going into winter so I decrease spirulina which is seaweed protein, needed for breeding not pets and I will give black sunflower for the extra oil and extra warmth for winter. My breeders live outside year round. Fruits are also different in winter and they get more veg and less fruit for the winter. I don't get any out of season breeding or hormones. My birds are almost finished breeding and going into molt.
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:34 AM   #30
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Default Re: Amozon hormonal advise

Ditto. I don't only keep them to a strict natural daylight schedule (all of them, temperate and tropical clime birds) but I also change their diets. In the spring I give more tender greens and protein in the form of added legumes (not seeds! they get the same amount of those all year round but I do give them an occasional almond for the extra vitamin E) and this diet gradually grows into the summer one when I give more fruits, veggies and greens until molt starts when I give them more carbs and extra sesame seeds for the methionine needed for feather production. This continues into fall until they finish the molt and then I gradually bring them into the winter diet when I give them more hardy greens, root veggies, less protein, less fruits and smaller portions (the days are shorter so there is less energy been used and birds in the wild always get less food during the off-season).

As to breeding, yes, protein, carbs and vitamin E are breeding food.

Also, excess protein combined with long days can trigger an off-season molt.

Last edited by Beatriz Cazeneuve; 03-20-2008 at 07:37 AM.
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