Dr. Pepperberg's Research with Alex (moved from prayer request thread) - Page 3

09-09-2007, 09:08 PM

Joel in blue:

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighrivera

"....... Did he live in a lab? YES. Not my ideal scenario by any means, but we cant take that away. He wasnt left alone, or starved for tricks. He was well loved and those people just had their worlds turned upside down. I really dont want to believe anyone could have such a lack of respect for that right now. Respect for what? For only what you mentioned?.......I am glad he was "well loved" - whatever that really means. Wart and Griffin are also well cared for depends on what your definition of "well cared for" is , and I go to the defense of the people caring for them! To continue this debate right now is unethical. I disagree, now is the best time IMO while it is all fresh in everyone's mind. Isn't gonna hurt Alex any, he is gone and if the "truth hurts" his keepers, then so be it - maybe they might change things in the future with Griffin & Wart if they get enough feedback = constructive criticism maybe? I agree with some of the things you said, but over all, keeping parrots in captivity is unethical I disagree there too - for the most part - it depends IMO & IME HOW they are kept in captivity. , and Im learning that everyday as I meet people with rescues that are full of unwanted birds. The point of the continued education is so that people can see how complicated these creatures are and are not meant to be caged to begin with. Keeping them in a lab, probably clipped in most cases? & etc. is NOT the way to do that Leigh, not IMO anyway So how can you as a breeder, challenge captivity issues I'm not simply challenging all captivity issues but I am challenging certain captivity issues - like clipping, keeping indoors in small cages, keeping indoors without proper lighting, without proper diet and without proper mental stimulation and without daily interaction with their own species .when you yourself are bringing more into the world, to ultimately be caged? Do you know how many birds I sold or gave away in the last yr. Leigh - the answer to that is a few cockatiels and they went to one well respected pet shop (for their own breeding program - I even self inspected their set-up and it was one of the best I have ever seen - huge long colony breeding flights). I sold a few others also to a breeder friend I know who also seems to care to whom she sells to - even though I believe she said she wound up keeping them for her own. Anyway, my point is that I try my best to sell/re-home my occassional babies to good hopefully forever homes and I instruct the new keepers what is best for the birds IMO & IME. I have turned down many sales myself because I did not trust what I felt I was being told by the potential new owners. Bottom line is that I think there is nothing wrong with keeping parrots in captivity and/or allowing them to breed - if they are kept the way I always mention - like a broken record, I am sounding I'm sure.

09-09-2007, 09:22 PM

Can you at least respect the fact that the people who loved this bird are mourning, and allow that without debate?

09-09-2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighrivera

Can you at least respect the fact that the people who loved this bird are mourning, and allow that without debate?

So let them mourn (how am I stopping that), what are they doing here tonight reading all this if they want to be in silent mourning? I'm in mourning myself, only I feel it in a different way than many. I shed no tears or slink off depressed (what does that accomplish - how does that benefit Alex or Griffin or Wart or any other experimentation type bird?) ..... I ask questions and make comments, maybe in some way if we all did that, future experimentation type birds may fair better than Alex did?

I am sure Alex's keeper(s) are prolly not here reading any of this today/tonight. If someone here is relaying our talks to them, then maybe you should ask them to hold up.

Can you respect my right to ask questions regarding the circumstances surrounding Alex's death? As you see from other posts, I am not the only one her with questions - we are all concerned about what happened and very sad about Alex's passing at only 30 yrs. old.

Peace - Goodnight.

09-09-2007, 10:07 PM

Now is not the time. Its disrespectful. I cant say anymore than that.

09-09-2007, 10:28 PM

Perhaps agreeing to disagree on what mourning for Alex really is for each person is appropriate. For some it is remembering the good and others it is challenging the bad. Either perspective is correct in the mind of the person mourning. It seems respectful to appreciate the opinions of each other. Thanks for your consideration and for the love of Alex. Fly high sweet bird......

09-10-2007, 02:41 AM

I have to agree with Joel and others here. I am not sure that it is good to keep parrots in small cages. Although my birds are partially clipped they are only caged at night, I hate to see birds in jail. During the day they are often out in the aviary doing bird stuff. While I do breed it does not matter if I cant place the baby in the right home, in the instance s/he gets to stay with me. I would never sell to a pet shop.

09-10-2007, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~J~

Give a parrot a choice of living like Alex did - with that so called "love" from a human or many humans - look where that got him - vs. safe, fully flighted life in a huge outdoor aviary in a tropical setting with playmates of his own species, toys, wood to chew on, an excellent diet and freedom from stress.

hey joe hun.. can you get girl friday to take some pics of your tropical out door flights i would really love to get some ideas about how to go set it up

tho its not going to be tropical in ireland...more like damp and cold but sure as long as the birds are happier in an outdoor flight ill try it

09-10-2007, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moirana

I second that to a 100%. As another scientist, I also have strong feelings towards animal research - I personally would probably not be able to conduct it. However, as all of us, I'm also using it in one way or another on a daily basis (I guarantee you, that the guidelines for exposure to organic solvents were not determined using humans - if somebody requires a citation, please let me know and I will dig into it). Therefore, I see the benefits in it - do I like the process leading to those benefits? No, but I can assure you that it's the only reason that humans nowadays exceed a live expectation of ~35-40yrs (please refer to publicly accessible population statistics for that).

In the case of Alex, I must say that I personally think he led a better live than a lot of companion parrots in homes - before you go after me now for that statement, please consider that neglect and/or abuse of parrots are still very common in our society due to lack of knowledge. Not many come up, but the ones that do say plenty (for examples, please refer to the articles on the TGF website regarding the most recent hording situation in Colorado). Was it ideal? Maybe not, but he was loved and cared for (something I'm sure many other companion parrots are lacking - some of them end up at the TGF, please see the photos of 100s of cockatoos in the corresponding threads).

Same for me...

I full agree with Bee and Catschair here. Animal research is not going to end any time soon, and the benefits from it are extraordinary. I, personally, would not be able to conduct animal research, but I do respect it and acknowledge that it occurs (it occurs daily around me, on the same floor of my building).

I believe that Alex led a more fullfilling life than a lot of captive parrots. I attended a seminar given by Irene and Alex DID get choices as to what he wanted to do - if he wanted to return to his cage, he asked and it was granted. She said that it sometimes made it hard to conduct research but she didn't push him beyond what he wanted to do. If he wanted treats, he asked and got treats, if he wanted water, he asked and he got water. She said that he got excited to learn new things. Alex was thinking and reasoning, something that some captive parrots don't do because they don't have foraging exercises or the like.

I'm deeply saddened by Alex's passing.

09-10-2007, 08:51 AM

Based on my first hand conversations I can tell you, Alex was NOT kept in a small cage. He had a separate sleeping cage that was smaller. He interacted with people all day and was challenged more than most captive birds that are stuck in cages all day while people are at work. It seems to be acceptable that most who own birds work all day and the birds are kept in cages. Im all for being an advocate for the birds, I agree with Joel saying experiments should be done on hardened criminals and not animals. I even agree that a lab is not an ideal living situation for a bird, monkey or guinea pig. But clearly the message of the research hasnt been heard. If everyone who tried to keep a bird realized the intelligence of this creature, there wouldn't be sanctuaries, rescues, and shelters filled to the roof with birds. Theres a lifetime supply of birds out there right now needing homes. Even the bird keepers with the best intentions dont offer fs lighting, proper diet, flight space, yet the bird will live for 40 years say. Whats the difference if its in a house or a clean lab? The point Im trying to get to is, Alex led a life of an average bird in captivity. He lived in a cage , like ALL OF OURS DO. He had a FS light fixture, like most of ours do, he ate bird food, and was handled by humans. But if anyone here has birds that are fully flighted, live in trees, get perfect humidity, arent expected to at least learn to say "Hello", and dont live in some sort of cage or enclosure, Id like to know who they are and I will be happy to applaud them for making a perfect life for the birds. The life I would like to offer mine! Meanwhile, there are specific people out there who lost a creature that was Dear to them, that was well cared for, and I cry with them. It takes a special person to bring out the intelligence in such a creature. If not, we would all have parrots that count, identify, and solve problems verbally. Is anyone else out there smart enough to highlight their bird achievements? Please come forward if so.

09-10-2007, 11:27 AM

I was given permission to post this directly from Arlene. The necropsy on Alex revealed that his lungs, kidneys, liver and heart were fine. Tissue has been sent out for further testing and should be back by the end of the week.