An Avian Behavior Forum sounds like a wonderful idea! We can always change the name of the Training Technique Forum.

Kelly when working with positive reinforcement and ABC's there isn't a wrong answer so to speak.

My ABC's, Setting & Prediction for this scenario to have a better outcome would be very similar to what you suggested.

Setting events: John has just gotten home from work and spends time playing with Gizmo then gives him his dinner and puts him on his play stand in the TV room

Antecedent: John is watching TV.

Behavior: Gizmo starts screaming.

Consequence: John leaves the room

Prediction : Gizmo will eventually learn that if he starts screaming John will leave the room. When Gizmo is quiet, John will return.

I didn't change the Antecedent but the setting event. Trying in my mind to set Gizmo up for success by seeing to his needs first. Then I changed the Consequence, if there is screaming it results in no attention, not even negative attention.

This paragraph really hit home for me too, Kelly. I have a HUGE phobia of snakes. Huge. I've tried to get over it, but it's very difficult for me. I work at a University and I'm always looking for non-invasive studies to be a part of that pay a small amount in return (like recently I participated in a nutrition survey and earned an easy 20 bucks). One time there was a flier hung about needing participants for a Phobia study. I called them up, thinking that maybe they would monitor things like my pulse reaction or something while they showed me images of snakes or something. They told me that I would be IN a room WITH my phobia and that they would gradually move the snake closer and closer to me - that was it, I said "NO THANKS" - my heart was already racing at the thought. So imagining myself being flooded by my biggest fear is unthinkable to me.

The bottom line is that I don't want to turn my birds into submissive creatures.

I have to think if this were done repeatedly it would create the learned helplessness and submission where the bird just gives up. This would set up a whole series of new problems or possibly a bird that mentally has given up on life.

Sarah, I totally understand what you are talking about. I have a phobic fear of spiders and when I read that paragraph, I could only imagine how I would feel if restrained and left in a room with spiders. It made me remember how my ekkie, Charley, had to be toweled by the vet while he used a dremel to whittle down Charley's overgrown beak (he came to me like that and has never had to have the procedure repeated). Charley screamed like I have never ever heard him scream before or since. Once completed, the vet unwrapped Charley and let him rest for a good half hour before proceeding with other vet procedures (I had Charley there for an overall exam) because Charley was breathing so heavy and was obviously very stressed. Charley immediately ran over to me and I held him in my arms to try and soothe him. Can you imagine how it must have seemed to Charley to be restrained and this power tool grinding away at his beak? Knowing what I know now, I don't think I would have let the vet grind Charley's beak -- it was overgrown due to lack of toys and other materials for him to chew and keep his beak in shape. I would probably have been patient and allowed him to shape his beak on his own with some good chewing materials. (The store where I got him said that his beak was nearly twice as long when he was placed on consignment there and that he had chewed it down to the condition it was in when I got him -- so he had been making progress on his own. But my vet encouraged me to let him dremel it into shape so that Charley would have a normal beak right away.)

I agree with Karen that routinely "breaking" a bird with use of flooding techniques that require total submission of the bird would seemingly lead to other problems -- both physical and mental -- over the long haul.

I think that in time, we (as a species) will come to realize that any form of "breaking" an animal is inhumane and should be avoided at all costs. Yes, flooding techniques can produce results, but I question whether they are really the desired results, particularly in the long term. You can force compliant behavior this way, through sheer exhaustion and/or despair. Isn't forcing compliance through exhaustion and despair a form of torture? I know that isn't how its adherents think of it, I know their motives are anything but wanting to inflict torture, but that's what it is.

These methods of training hark back to a day when man considered himself as the supreme creation, and believed that animals were only put on this earth to serve man, whether as food or slave or ornament. Throughout much of history and prehistory, this attitude was fostered by the drive to survive, and as such was a somewhat justified result. Now our civilizations have progressed to the point where we can re-examine some of these racial memories, and pick and choose which of them still serve us well, and which of them we choose to discard. I hope the concept of man as superior to all other life and rightful master of his domain will be among the first to fall. There is evidence that it is crumbling, but there are still many remnants left in us. The need to dominate, indeed the whole concept of "dominance" is but one of those remnants. Slowly, we are reaching the conclusion that in many cases, we do not need to dominate in order to have a successful relationship with other creatures who show a willingness to participate in a relationship with us. This is particularly true regarding birds, who do not, by nature, live by pack rules. When we learn to accept them for what they are, and not expect them to conform to our expectation of what is or is not proper behavior, we take all the pressure off them. We put all that pressure on ourselves, where it rightly belongs. They did not seek us out, they did not have the opportunity to choose to live with us. We made that choice for them, so it is only right that we should learn to adjust in order to accommodate them. When we are finally able to do that, we will reap the benefits of a relationship based on what is truly our strength, and that which truly can make us superior; our ability to accept, respect, and accommodate that which is other than us. As human beings, we can freely do that, as a matter of choice. Other animals really only have the ability to be what they are, and when we attempt to mold them into something else, we diminish them. They don't deserve that.

There's so many things to address in these articles, many points could even have their own thread topic. I just read Phobic Birds and I think it's a great article and it rings true with my experience with my two (then) untamed budgies.

I speak softly to birds that I don't know well, but I never thought about it in terms of predator/prey relationships - speaking/singing to the phobic bird is good because predators usually don't vocalize when they are hunting prey.

I also use the concept of explaining things and actions to my birds. I do it because it seems to amuse them - Jerry is always VERY interested when I am explaining stuff to him. And I do believe it helps to lessen fear of objects or areas.

The article mentions a point about feeling secure in smaller places - I think this is also true. Both Jerry and Winston have started out in my home in the same cage. It's a budgie-sized cage and certainly no mansion. I do think that they both felt very comfortable and secure in that cage though. I didn't handle them outside the cage for a few weeks after they were home (to settle in, as they were both untame), and I do think that made a difference to how they view their cages. They now willingly go into their cages (they both have large cages now) and I believe they see it as their safe zone and not a confinement.

I'm rambling about a lot of issues here, but I also wanted to bring up this point in regards to flooding:
I've read many instances of people forcefully toweling and petting/stroking a new bird until they give up and submit to it all. What bothers me is the petting/stroking. I know that most people are wired to think that all pets like to be petted, like cats and dogs, but not all species of birds enjoy that much physical contact. For example, budgie flocks generally only preen each other's head. They may sit side by side, but there's not a ton of bird to bird contact going on. So I don't like the idea of forceful contact and a LOT of contact from the bird's point of view.

OK Update. Poor Pipe. I've been blaming her for plucking the back of Toby's neck. And I'm sure she has. But WHY?

Because TOBY REQUESTS IT!

Jeeze o man. I saw him. A number of times. He gets all Parrotlet puffy, chases her around, then dips his head down so his neck is right at her beak.

I always said he was a dork. Poor guy I guess in time I'll figure out what's going on with him....I'm hoping for a two week turnaround....

Uh.....Feathersnfur8...? Ya know how you're supposed to ask EVERYBODY about the vitamin E and breeding behavior? You forgot to ask ME here....

OMG I just realized I've been giving Goldenfeast Treat Petite which is LOADED LOADED with nuts!!! Instead of the Legume. And I've been giving LOTS OF IT.

LOL poor Toby...he must be jumping out of his skin.......the skin which I can now see on the back of his neck!!!

<fingers crossed that's the problem>

what your discussing here is called "join up" and the corral is called a round pen we have 4 at our yard) but it isnt actually making the horse exhausted...far from it... it is using body language to establish yourself as the alpha horse... in the horse in charge send away the lesser established horses from the herd (that is what monty and i as one of his students do when we ask the horse to canter around us)

then once the horse has given the correct signals that he is willing to trust and behave to become part of the herd again (by lowering his head to the ground, chewing and licking his lips and point his ears to you) you stop applying the alpha body language and you put yourself in a position that the horse classes as inviting.. 45degree angle shoulders curved no direct eye contact and hands across your chest..

that is when the horse decided your the leader and is willing to trust you

im just trying to show you that this techniques are far from cruel..they are what the horse uses in the natural herd..

to address another point in your post... the horse does not gallop around for hours...start to finish if done correctly join up takes about a 1/2hr..

even then most fo the time is spent with the horse trotting not galloping around terrified yes you do ask for canter at the start to prove your leadership status but after a few minutes a trot is more than alright to do the remainder of the training... i am more than willing to discuss these techniques with you if you would like.. to educate you on more than what you have seen on the tv

by the way up until a few months ago i was a trainer.. i dont like the term "breaking" a horse.. but i took in the more problematic horses.. the ones most trainers wouldnt... and i had great success with these animals using these techniques and others... cruel is what some of these animals when through before getting to me.. trainers trying to beat them into submission... i make a point that i do not ride with a whip unless absolutely needed and i do not ride an uneducated horse with spurs..EVER unfortunately the problem is most trainers now days think whips and spurs are essential and the world would be better if more people took on monty roberts and pat parrellis principles and used them as part of there day to day horse care and management

this is a site i think you may find informative and may change your views cindy

Monty Roberts Join Up, Man Who Listens to Horses, Real Horse Whisperer, Books, Biography, Train, Demonstrations, Flag is Up