Karen, to me "training" implies "tricks" as in training a parrot to dunk a ball or ring a bell. But that's just me. Sometimes I think we should have a behavior forum here as that is really more descriptive of the type of discussion I am wanting to have. My interest lies more in understanding the bird and why a bird acts a certain way and how to get it to act differently in a humane, friendly and compassionate manner that is respectful of the bird as an intelligent, feeling being.

I'll take a stab at the ABC sample you stated. Anyone into this kind of thing, I would love to hear your feedback.

Setting events: John has just gotten home from work.
Antecedent: John is watching TV.
Behavior: Gizmo starts screaming.
Consequence: John yells at Gizmo to shut up.
Prediction : Gizmo will continue to scream every time John watches TV to get his attention. (Attention is attention, whether it be positive or negative)

I'm assuming that Gizmo is screaming for attention -- so there is an unmet need at play here. John could modify the antecedent by giving some attention to Gizmo prior to sitting down to watch TV. Not sure where Gizmo is located? If in another room, perhaps bringing him into the same room where John is watching TV would satisfy his need for attention. I know that many times my birds seem to be content so long as I am in their line of vision.

As for changing the C (consequence), hopefully Gizmo would not still be screaming since John changed the antecedent. But if that is not the case and Gizmo continues to scream, John should not react to Gizmo's scream but ignore him. And when Gizmo is quiet, John should reward Gizmo either with verbal praise or maybe a small food treat.

I've not done this type of exercise before so not sure if I have responded appropriately. Let me know!

I really liked the article "Alternatives to Breaking Parrots." I've never seen such detailed reasoning about why flooding can be detrimental. I've always been a believer in not forcing my birds to comply with what I want them to do. Since they don't have a concept of dominance I don't think it makes sense to treat our relationship as if I'm dominant over them.

I haven't gotten to the ABCs article yet, but from the last few posts it looks interesting.

The Cockatoo Defensive Behavior is very interesting. It's important for all species to feel that they can escape dangers, and their instinct is to do that through flight. I love that personal response where the man was free flying toos and saying that when a perceived danger was near the birds werent seeking him for protection. Their first instincts are to fly away, and that's exactly what my flock does when someone sounds an alarm - it always amazes me when I see someone give a slight body language cue or an alert call and they all take off together in unison.

Very interesting. Flooding and forcing has no chance of working for a horse. They are prey animals also.

I think thats a great Idea!..... is there any reasn we couldnt have a behavior forum?

Oh 2horse you reminded me of a guy that made me so sick...he's supposed to be this big deal horse trainer I wont say who.....

On Public Television how great he was. Doing these shows at farm show and tourist events how he trains horses. Some people brought their horses from home for help in "training".

He takes the poor horse into a large barn/arena and inside a corral of sorts in there. Then forces it to run around in circles for LITERALLY HOURS.

Because it's a prey animal he waves his hand and arm over and over so the horse tries to escape him and of course he cannot get away with this big bully chasing him around this small enclosure waving his stupid arm.

And everyone there saying how awesome he was when the horse gave up in exhaustion. I was personally wishing for a bull to stampede the guy.

Yes breaking an animal is something that I despise prey or predator alike.

I applaud every single one who has the heart to refuse things although it probably gets them a terrible life in return.

"Flooding" is a new term for me, although you first told me about it Cindy a few months ago in another thread. While I was unfamiliar with that term, I was not a stranger to the technique it involves. I grew up around horses as a kid and saw my share of flooding techniques used by grown-ups to "break" a new horse. I could not bear to watch for long then and would not watch it now.

The following paragraph (from the artcle I posted about in the opening post to this thread) really brought home to me how "flooding" must feel to birds or any other animal it is used on:


I and many other behaviorists (e.g. Burch and Bailey, 1999; Morgenstern, 1973), experienced bird trainers (Martin, 2002, Morrow, 2002) and bird caretakers believe that this procedure is not a humane method of dealing with aggression or fear, especially in light of the many validated positive alternatives. To better assess the ethics of this procedure, I challenge readers to think truly for one minute about your greatest fear: Is it
snakes? Spiders or rock ledges? The dark when you are alone? Bridges or tight spaces? Now, imagine being grabbed by your leg, wrapped tightly in a sheet and restrained in the presence of this feared stimulus or condition with no control and no possibility of escape. For some of you, if restrained long enough, this feeling of sweat-breaking, breath-robbing panic will extinguish. Now, answer this: Even in cases of apparent effectiveness, is efficacy the only criterion for selecting best practices with our companion parrots in light
of more positive, less intrusive behavior-change strategies?

And the sad thing is, it's just not necessary.

For everyday dilemmas not including forcing, the A part is key I think. Are we setting ourselves up for failure and endangering our birds' physical or psychological health by "wanting" something for ourselves?

Example, I made the mistake of bring Piper Parrotlet home to a house with a bonded Budgie pair. Oh man. I thought she would be friends with him and that his hen was not going to live for long. (wrong again lol)

The B was Piper and the male budgie trying to breed although she was a baby and clueless. And the C was that I forever and ever have to juggle two cages to be in different rooms. And to this day Pipe tries everything she can do to go to him and it's fourteen months later!

We need to examine what we set up ahead of time and it's not that easy. Even someone experienced like me is open to making a ton of mistakes because our experiences BEFORE the mistakes didn't cover this "particular" mistake if you get my point. I kept a ton of birds out and together all the time in my store. (the BB parrots sold so fast I didnt have them in the playpen for long, though and they lived in a cage. So I never really "lived" with them long enough to learn that my Piper/Budgie thing was doomed.)

OK here's this Month's HUGE error I committed.

A. Cindy decides breeding season is over and it's "safe" to leave the Parrotlets in the Budgie room untill 11 am on the weekends "just in case" it ever has to happen they wont freak out.

[ok first mistake is ignoring the hard fact that Parrotlets cannot be in a room with other pairs of any kind of bird]

B. Cindy notices them sitting there all during the morning times staring at the budgie cage which is half covered so they cant see them but they hear them. Cindy falsley assumes this is going great.

C. Cindy finds Toby's neck plucked from Piper around the back of his head and now he has a little egghead and some bare skin.

Is it lead in the cage? Is she sick and onery? Is HE sick and she knows it? Is it not enough protein and she's eating his keratin? Is it too much protein and she's too hyper and breedy? Is it the pellets and she/he's not feeling well and kidneys and liver starting to go? Is it that I havent followed a strict enough natural daylight schedule since they go to roost in the chandelier now by 5 which is very early? Is it I havent changed the inside enough and provided enough new shredding toys? I've been very busy lately and have I ignored them too much and they are too focused on each other much more than earlier this summer?

Enough questions? You can make yourself nuts but I can't have him plucked by her. Bad enough if she plucked herself but NOT HIM.

Well I'm having the cage tested and replaced it already anyway. I'm moving it to a not nesty and different spot during the day.

Mostly everything is different in there and new shredding toys.

I'm extending the nights and decreasing the protein. I'm still giving the pellets since they love them.

I'm giving only distilled water and increasing the baths.

I'm watching her and correct her when I see her go for his neck, correct meaning distract. I notice he barks at her and fends her off so he's not happy about it either.

I'm also giving two different far away food bowls so they dont bicker over the same food item.

Finally I'm spending more time with each so they ignore each other more.

If she continues I'll have labs done and also split them up but am afraid to do so in case she ends up plucking herself, BUT if I see him lose any more feathers there or elsewhere out he comes!

YEP simple ABC, not thought out and hopefully my dumb idea is the entire cause of it. And she'll stop.

Oh yeah another new thing I did was offer Dr Harvey's Parakeet food to the Plets because they like it and it smells good. BUT upon examination it seems to have dyes. The colors are awfully bright. And they use sulfites I think Karen said. So out that came, too.

NEVER EVER do two changes at once. Another life lesson all us animal people know so well but forget to do alot.

You're right Cindy. They're one of the many companies I contacted and their fruits are dried using Sulfur Dioxide.

I ran into a temporary plucking incident with Kita after her chelation therapy for Zinc. What EFA are you giving? I would suggest Sea Buckthorn. (There's a thread in the Health-Holistic Forum about what kind to buy. One drop is all you'll need to supplement. Also be certain they're getting enough Vit. A. These were fixes that helped Kita.