I'm sure this is going to be a heated discussion. I'm wondering how many of you discipline your parrots? I've heard so many differing views on this, that I just started doing what works for me and Ollie. Many people/books say that you can't discipline a parrot- it won't do any good. Well if these guys are really as smart as small children then I'm assuming they can learn the basics between what is okay for them to do, and what is unacceptable. I treat Ollie as I would a small child, and my 2 year old cousin knows what "no" means, and she also knows the meaning of "time out." Ollie knows what "no" means as well.

I use a squirt bottle to keep Ollie in line. I very rarely have to use it- I either threaten her with "you wanna squirt?" or just pick up the bottle so she sees it. I do this when she flies somewhere she's not supposed to (top of the door, back of my computer chair, etc) or if she's chewing on something she's not supposed to (she will hang off the side of her cage and chew on my purses, her f.s. light, the curtains...). If I actually have to squirt her, she only gets it in the tail. It is impossible for me to fully make our living area bird safe. I live in an apartment with a roommate, and because of a falling out with her Ollie and I live in my bedroom. My room is beyond crowded with all of my stuff plus her cage, hoopball, and PVC palace. I'm planning in the future for Ollie to have her own room where she can go anywhere and chew on anything she wants. That is just not the case right now, so she has to know the rules of the bedroom!

I think it would be really hard to discipline in a house with multiple birds. If Ollie sees us even reach for the squirt bottle she goes on alert and will almost immediately start behaving. If I had more than one bird who knew the meaning of the bottle, I think it would be too confusing for them if only one was being naughty. They would probably all think it was for them.

When I first got Ollie I thought I was going to use ONLY positive reinforcement with her. That thought didn't last long. She knows perfectly well when she's being naughty, and she will often test me. Case in point: A few days ago she was on top of her cage and reached up toward her light. I said "Hey! You wanna squirt?" She immediately quit reaching and just sat there looking at me. I turned back to my book. She then reached up quickly, grabbed the light and shook it, then ran across the top of her cage and jumped on the neighboring hoopball where she proceeded to make the sound of the squirt bottle squirting. She topped it off with a "Good Ollie Girl." I swear she is a 3 year old human in feathers.

How many of you use only positive reinforcement? How does that work for you?

Do you ever tell your birds "no"? Do they go back in their cage when they're being bad?

Is there anybody else here that uses a squirt bottle?

I was just reading an article in Good Bird Inc about this very thing. Essentially it said disciplining is bad..they did have some examples where it is okay to use minor negative reinforcement. While reading it, I thought "oh yeah! Makes PERFECT sense!"

Now I'm sitting here w/ Jodi, a CAG, trying to bite the crap out of me,` p`ulling keys off my keyboard...and I'm thinking...this positive reinforcement is NOT working!

I think, overall, I agree with the article...though they do say not to squirt birds. I know w/ Pruitt, or Pacino, or Rudy, No-Name or Niko, disciplining them would do nothing more than reinforce their idea that "people are evil and only want to hurt me"

I'm not so sure w/ the non-traumatized birds. I do know I have to be very careful w/ HOW I 'discipline' them...Jodi has taken to flying off her cage & walking around. I pick her up *every time* and put her back. Well...that's reinforcing the behavior, isn't it? She is getting what she wants...attention from Mommy. It may only be for a second, but she got what she wanted.

The other thing the article mentioned was "earthquaking"...and for a normal bird I do agree w/ what they said - don't do it. Our Pruitt flung himself 21 feet the other night to get to dh...should he earthquake to get the bird OFF him?
I say yes..do whatever you have to do to get the bird OFF(as long as it does not hurt or injure or traumatize the bird)..but, we are talking about a man hating hormonal male BFA. If it was one of our more socialized birds, I'd say no...

That was a lot of help, wasn't it? LOL! You might want to check out the article...it was either the fall or winter 06 issue.

Wendy

Parrots aren't stupid and will learn when negative reinforcement techniques are used on them. But what they learn won't necessarily be what you think you're teaching them. Parrots have a very different social system than humans/primates do, they are prey animals to a much greater degree than humans (or cats or dogs) ever were, and their cognitive functioning is very different from ours. Even mild aversives come with a subtext that says you're not completely trustworthy.

If I thought in any way that disciplining Ollie with a squirt bottle was affecting our relationship or the way she feels about me, I would definitely reevaluate and try something different. I can do just about anything to her (besides put her harness on without getting bloody fingers) and she will let me. She is such a cuddler. She isn't scared of me, and she isn't scared of the squirt bottle when its just sitting on the desk. She isn't even scared of it if we reach for it, and she knows she isn't doing anything wrong. She knows perfectly well that the only time to be wary of the bottle is if we reach for it when she's doing something bad. Which means she knows when she is being bad.

I also want to say that I use plenty of positive reinforcement. "good girl" was about the 4th or 5th phrase she learned. She hears it a lot.

I think this is just another thing that there are always going to be differing views on. When our dogs were young they got light pops on the nose when they nipped. Some people would tell me that I am a horrible dog owner. I think I am a good dog owner for teaching them manners. Spanking your children is now considered abuse by many and several states are working on getting it outlawed. I think that is ridiculous. The kids who aren't getting spanked or disciplined are the ones who end up getting into trouble. This is what is wrong with the world today. Kids are out of control and have no respect for authority. That is a totally separate issue though.

I would never hit, shake, or scream at Ollie. Squirting doesn't hurt her in the least.

I think that a rescued/traumatized bird would be a different story. It depends on their history. Ollie grew up with the squirt bottle, and she knows its not going to hurt her. She just doesn't like it.

I agree with your position on earthquaking. I would never purposly do it- but if a bird flew at me and started mauling me I would probably shake to get him off without even thinking about it!

Camille, I don't agree with using a squirt bottle merely because it causes them to be afraid of being misted. They associate that bottle as a bad thing.

I usually give a stern NO! and then give them a kiss or a little squeeze (an affectionate squeeze). I never flick their beak or use their cage as punishment. When they stop the bad behavior, I say "good girl or good boy." I also do the MILD "earthquake" if the bad behavior occurs when I am holding them.

And I agree -this should be a good thread!!

If I bathed her using a squirt bottle or mister than obviously I couldn't use it for discipline. Ollie bathes in the kitchen sink or in the shower so that isn't a problem.

Camille...I hope I did not offend you with what I posted..that was NOT my intention! You agree w/ me that using the same methods on an abused bird just won't work...

I've been reading posts about Ollie for...well, forever! I know you love her, and she loves you, and that you would never hurt her!

If the squirt bottle is working for you, that's great. 2 of my greys came to me hating water and terrified of being misted - they were force-misted nightly. I could NEVER use a water bottle on them.to discipline them. A year later, one of the two will finally allow a light misting. the other one still runs & hides. Yes, she's a dirty bird! And those 2 were from a "good loving home".
No, they are not the 2 that were left for dead...

The earthquake doesn't even really work w/ Pruitt - the night he jumped 21 ft to attack dh I was outside. When I came in, Dh was hunched over covering his face w/ his arm, with the raging amazon hanging off him.. I KNOW he tried to earthquake the bird off him...the bird was hell bent on killing him.
I walked up, stuck my arm out & to Pru, everything was right w/ the world. He stepped up like nothing had happened & kissed me. Obviously, he is no longer allowed out when dh is home unless it is in a closed room...

If what you are doing is working for you & not causing any ill effects, then...it's working for you! EVERY bird is different...every situation is different. And honestly, you are the only person that truly knows if what you are doing works. You are the one that loves Ollie, lives with her, plays with her, interacts with her. NO one else knows what works with her...they don't live with her, know her personality, her quirks, her likes/dislikes, what scares her, what reassures her.
Wendy

You didn't offend me! And anways- I'm expecting to take some heat for my my views and the way I do things. I just want to explain where I'm coming from and how it works for me. I also want to know what other people do and how they do it, if they even believe in disciplining.

I agree that every bird is different. And every person (and bird) handles each situation differently. If I thought for a minute that disciplining Ollie the way I do was harming her physically or psychologically I would stop in a minute. She is the love of my life!

It sounds like Pruitt is quite the handful! At least he loves you!

I also use a squirt bottle for discipline of the birds - but only for 2 things. For Kirby - he has 1 ear piercing chirp he does. It drives me insane. In the beginning when I decided to use the squirt bottle, he had been doing the loud chirp over and over again, I had tried "no", distraction etc. When he did it again, I squirted at his tail and said "no". He stopped and I praised him. He's to the point now, where if he starts doing it - I pick up the bottle (usually don't have to squirt it though) and he stops doing the loud chirp - but makes quieter noises - for which I praise him. I also use the squirt bottle if any of the fids have flown to a spot where they shouldn't be in. Funny enough - having multiple birds - I haven't had a problem with picking it up to correct 1 bird. No one seems to pay attention if they aren't the ones doing something they're not supposed to be. I also use the exact same bottle for spray baths - and have yet to see a problem with doing so. I think they're smart enough to know when I pick it up and say "who wants a bath?!" in an excited tone - that no one's doing something wrong. Also with the bath - they're getting misted not "squirted." I'm with Camille in that if I felt by using this method I was creating fear in my birds or it was badly affecting our relationship - I wouldn't continue to use it.

My cag understands NO.
When the fids get loud I simply tell them to whisper and they do.
Boca will often come looking for me...I don't pick him up. Most of the time I just have to say...Boca, go home and he goes back to his cage.
Baby is my problem child. I do use a little squirt on her now and then but usualy if I ignore her she will stop being bad because she isn't getting the attention she wants. 10-15 minutes later, when she settles down, I play with her and give her attention.