Thanks Patrick for your willingness to provide me (in e-mail) "monograph references" to what you say, however unless they are in simple layman's terms/wording, I will no doubt look to you and other experts in the field (to the extent there are any) to interpret them for me. I rather wish you could/would just find a way to explain it all to all of us here on the board, openly & simply somehow without any highly technical jargon - if possible.

Again, I am asking you to provide us (in whatever thread you want, in whatever forum you want - when convienent for you but asap - if possible) some reasons why I/we should spend $54.50 (plus maybe shipping and tax = for 2 of your new tubes) when we can get great "F.S. Lighting", I currently believe, for our birds from Philips for $14 approx. for two tubes (in my case anyway when I purchase a box of 25 at a time).

I want to provide the best lighting for my birds but I need you to tell me how your new lighting is any better than what I am currently using. I know you are wanting to keep this thread to the science behind lighting and I am jumping ahead more than you probably like but I am anxious to get to the bottom line: would my birds be better off with your new lighting and if so, how? That's all I am asking. Like I said, if you want to start a different thread in a different forum to address my questions, I have no objections. If you wish for me to start such a thread, just give me the nod and I will do it as I am really wanting to pursue this with you. I have relied greatly on your previous writings and so am quite anxious to hear any updates by you on the issue of lighting.

Regarding your comment about being forced to admit what you said: I have no way of knowing the calcium metabolism problems in most birds today but I'm guessing there is far more than any of us realize. JMO.

One other question for the moment: If you say there is no such thing as true Full Spectrum Lighting for our birds, then why are you labeling your new tubes as "full spectrum" or did I misunderstand something?

I assume he is using the term 'full spectrum' because that is the way the consumers would recognize the kind of product he is putting out (when in Rome...).

I think it's great, Patrick, that you are going to be manufacturing better lights for our birds, it was an empty niche in the industry and badly needed. But I disagree with your statement that 'a well fed bird does not need calcium supplementation' although I do agree that the so called 'full spectrum' lights are not enough for vitamin D3 production. That would be a bird that eats processed parrot food (like pellets) because if you feed a strictly vegetarian, natural, organic diet (grains, nuts, seeds, veggies, greens and fruits) the bird will not be able to absorb any calcium UNLESS he is exposed to direct sunlight a minimum of 20 minutes a day, something impossible for captive birds in cold climates. I feed plain seeds because fortified seeds are just a bird industry gimmick, the vitamins and minerals are sprayed on the aril (outer covering of the seed) which is discarded by the bird so all the supplements end up at the bottom of the cage and not in the bird's stomach.

"J", I appreciate your interest in learning about various products that are available--mine and others--and we will do that in another thread. First though we need to cover some the basics of what all this lighting is about and how it works--otherwise it's like trying to fix your car without knowing how it works!

The "straight dope" about the physics of light, physiology, anatomy, and the gamut of factual research is complicated and for the most part only available in accurate form in the manner it was written--papers, scholarly articles, and in academic books on the subject. I am attempting (as before) to translate this to a more understandable format--certain terms cannot be avoided however. Going back to the car analogy, we can talk about the thingy that gives gas to the motor--or we can talk about the carburetor or fuel injection system. Jargon? Or the descriptive name of the thing... Believe me, I am working to make it as understandable as possible.

To oversimplify is to leave out important details--or engage in the same sort of fuzzy adspeak that marketers use. As Beatriz observed, I use the label "full spectrum light" because that is what readers recognize and understand. We would not get very far with labels like "trichromatic fluorescent lighting sources" or "visual corrected artificial lighting"!

More to be posted later today--have to go deal with consulting clients right now...

Most people want a simple answer—what should I use if additional lighting helps. Just like anything else, if one does not have some basic knowledge of the mechanics of something they can be told or sold anything—and not have the tools to make informed decisions.

In every informed discussion of lighting, the matter becomes increasingly multidimensional—leading into other areas of health and nutrition. Beatriz has brought up the subject of nutrition and diet—things that get complex and controversial by their own merits—leading to lengthy debate on their own!

I did not say a well fed bird does not need “calcium supplementation.” Of course they need a source of calcium—it’s the most common mineral in any animal’s body! Vitamin D is not calcium—but regulates calcium and other mineral balance. Here is a link to an article by Dr. Alicia McWatters that can be generalized out to any species of tropical.



http://users.mis.net/~pthrush/lighting/calcium.html

My statement was that a well fed bird does not need sunlight or artificial light to receive adequate levels of Vitamin D when that source is provided through diet. There has been debate and evidence that some pellet diets are too rich in supplements—as there has been debate and evidence that strictly vegan diets are lacking in certain necessary nutrients. Adding egg, fish oils, and yeast products to the latter category adds Vitamin D to the diet. Yes, this diverges from the strictly vegan philosophy—but this thread is not the proper place to debate diet!

Those who study the anatomy and biochemistry of such things know exactly how the avian eye works--how the brain creates the picture is open to a little more discussion. But here are a few things that we do know, and concern us with lighting.

Birds do not see the same range of the spectrum that we do. I have attached a diagram to show the difference. Their eyes have an extra receptor that allows them to see higher frequencies than our "visible" light range--while they can not see red as deeply as we do. Colors or red below the range they can detect color would appear black.

If there is not enough near-UVA in the light a bird is exposed to, it would be for them very similar to being color blind would be for us. It's not a very big segment of UV, but enough to brighten up and show things that we cannot see but are natural for the bird to see.

Birds also see with a a lot more definition, or sharpness. They are able to detect much finer variations and detail than the human eye--and perceive subtle differences in coloration that even the best of us could not sort out.

Adding quality light extends your bird's vision to its normal range--and also works with other mechanisms to regulate metabolism and other things. Coming back to color temperature and CRI, the more "normal" the color temperature to the native evolutionary location of the bird, and the higher the CRI to assist them in seeing with the fine detail they are capable of--the result is a healthier, happier bird.

As to where my research and development for new lighting has led is this--changing the characteristics of the light from a balance intended for the human eye, to a balance meeting the requirements of the avian eye.

Here are a couple articles that dig very deeply into the subject--at the end of them they have more citations than a grad student can read in two weeks...

The Visual Capabilities of Birds

Color Vision of Birds

Attached Images

visual-comparison-spectrum.jpg (79.8 KB, 8 views)

Thanks for clarifying the calcium supplement misunderstanding. I've always told people that although I believe that 'full spectrum lights' are absolutely necessary for birds well-being, they do not really help with the vitamin D3 production.

I have often dispaired of the light industry not producing a good light source for birds and I am looking forward to buying your lights when they become available.

Thanks for your comments Bea--and this is the whole point that I am laying out. Quality additional lighting in many cases leads to healthier, happier birds!

There are good sources of fluorescent light on the market--made by Philips, LumiChrome, Triton, and others. Your observation is what brought me to the development stage--there are specialty lights made just for reptiles, fish, and other critters--but not for birds!

We try to apply the best logic and best products we can for giving our feathered charges a quality environment. And many have done an excellent job of this. But just like with any other product, there is room for improvement. Just think about regular old fluorescent lights--until a banker named John Ott tackled what he saw as a problem with the products of the 60s and 70s, the quality of fluorescent light was pretty crappy. Much of the changes we have seen over the past 30 years and the concept of "full spectrum light" have been due to his original research.

A few list members have emailed or PM'd me as to just how I come up with how various lights perform. The answer to that is it takes a lot of specialized equipment. So as I do not bore everyone to death droning on about this piece of gear or another and just how it works, I am attaching a photo of the spectrophotometry bench in our development lab--an area called the "grey room" because all wall and ceiling surfaces are painted a uniform 18% photographic grey.

The photo shows a well known compact fluorescent being prepared for evaluation.

Attached Images

grey-room.jpg (284.4 KB, 9 views)

thank you for all the wonderful info so far!!! My guys get a good amount of patio time every week in decent weather but the FS lights sure make a difference in their attitudes. For the better.

Thank you for all the new information Patrick. I hope you don't mind a few questions. At what times do you recommend lights be turned on after dawn and shut off before dusk? I see you offer 2, 3 & 4 foot tubes. Does the two foot size have the same effect as the 4 foot size? How far away from the birds do you recommend that you hang the lights? Do you recommend a downward reflector on the light fixture? What is the life expectancy of the lights?

Please, do ask questions!

Again speaking in general, here are a few answers. The size of a lamp governs how much light it can put out, and how big the area it can distribute that light can be. So, smaller lamps work well with small to medium cages where the light is not very far away. Longer tubes give off more light in a larger area, and can be positioned further away from the cage. In a fluorescent tube, the "quality" of the light does not differ for the same kind of tube as the size changes.

Most of our birds naturally come from a band around the earth called the "Torrid Zone." This is the area between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn. Unlike the variation between seasons here in the northern hemisphere, seasonal photoperiod there only changes about 1.5 hours per day--winter to summer! Daylight averages about 12 hours per day.

All supplemental lighting should be on a timer--providing regular cycles. Unlike ourselves that may forget or vary our light, the sun is pretty regular each day

Given a bird room or location that has a few windows to let in early morning and late evening light, my recommendation is between 8-10 hours of supplementation per day--adjusting for daylight savings time but keeping the same number of hours. This may need to be varied according to whether a bird is being bred, or is experiencing behavioral or health problems.

Mounting height for fixtures can vary--depending upon the size and output of the lamps in the fixture. Anything above a foot or so is acceptable--even more as the fixture size or number of lamps increases. Much of this is simply a matter of providing a ample--but not too much or too little--light to the area, and positioning the fixture in a way that does not present safety problems for your fids.

Any fixture uses should primarily direct the light downward--wrap around lights are OK, but can be a little bit of a nuisance to humans in the room! A chromed reflector is OK, but may be a little overkill. Brushed aluminum or standard white makes a good reflector that helps to scatter and mix light in a softer way. I would choose one of these Always use a fixture that has an electronic ballast--the old magnetic ones create a flicker and hum that birds can see and hear-electronic ones do not. They are also more energy efficient and lead to longer lamp life.

How long do they last? This varies by the lamp and what we expect to get out of it. While a lamp may be rated at say, 20,000 hours, this is what the manufacturer figures it will run before failing or having serious issues. Remember that fluorescent lamps change over time--degrading in the quality of light they shed. The Kelvin goes up, the CRI goes down, certain parts of the spectrum change, and the lumen (brightness) decreases.

For an average 8-10 hour day, lamps need replaced every 1-2 years, depending upon the quality and manufacturer. Compact fluorescent lamps degrade quickly for the use we are discussing--and should be changed every year. In general, I still do not recommend CFB's for avian use. Put them in your lamps at home for you!