This is an open thread with the above topic to hear both sides of who believes what. Short of flaming anything is ok. Anyone invited to voice opinions.

Personally I have a problem with birdie mill breeders and those rescues who keep parrots forever in hallways. It is my belief that if we all try take the middle road, we can all co-exist.

I wish with birds it could be like our kennel union which prevents the registration of excess litters of pups. I think they allow 3 litters in 24 months. There is no limit for birds so to take eggs and incubate a triple clutch per year is not impossible. To me it is real bad that pet shops or breeders can and do just sell babies without determining first whether the baby is going to an educated home, and more importantly that the baby is not going into a hoarding situation. It is very easy just to keep adding birds because the first baby is so cute. Caution needed to be exercised till we can know for ourselves what it is like to live with the adult version of that cute baby.

A rescue should always be able to adopt out at a reasonable price almost all birds. There will always be birds that are not able to be adopted out, I understand this. It is a very thin line between rescue and hoarding. The slogan “better dead than fed” gets to me, when I see this I want nothing to do with any rescue / animals rights organization, but I do understand this is the extreme.

I do not breed commercially so I understand this is only possible with fellow hobbyist breeders, but it is my choice is to breed for pleasure rather than profit. In making this choice I don’t turn out the maximum number of chicks that hatch or live till banding stage but they get to enjoy the right of being parent raised for a time. My breeders are also not forced into a rapid breeding cycle that can result in tired out, frustrated parents and weaker chicks. It is my belief that a few extra weeks with the parents can make all the difference in a well adjusted pet which has a lifetime ahead of him/her. I choose to hand feed from just after pin feather stage with a spoon. Babies are never forced to wean and get to experience an abundant diet when weaning. I also believe in providing the babies with toys as soon as they show any desire in picking anything up as they must be able to entertain themselves rather than expecting a human to be the only source of entertainment. Babies are also raised in groups rather than single containers as the flock instinct is strong. I am continually learning what I can do to try turn out the best possible baby for his/her new home; who I hope will become a cherished member of the new family. I do try keep in contact with my babies and love hearing how they grow.

My meaning of education is basically, I see wrong in impulse buying just because the baby is so cute, cuddly and loving. The education is basically that this cute baby is going to turn into a nasty, biting, noisy, messy, destructive etc adult. I guess the rescue people understand well what I mean by this statement. The love you have for your baby, if you got that baby without knowing what you in for, soon dims with whatever the baby grows into. Maturity should never be underrated, puberty is not fun. Karen has a great word “crumpy” which explains everything and why we still love them, even when they having a “bad hair day”.

I think we are all aware of the negatives that come with keeping these amazing wild beings in our homes.

No it's not. I keep in touch with the woman who was Bella's breeder and she's very happy to know Bella is in a good place. She worries for all of her babies and where they will end up at. Not everyone who breeds is considered a monster. Maintaining a healthy, happy, and cared for parrot, dog, cat, or horse takes time and money. Everything does that's just how life goes. Not every store that sells birds is an evil monster either.

There's the good, bad, and the ugly in everything. To lump everyone into the bad and ugly is terrible. I saw the ugly in a small bird store in Silver Springs, MD. My sister who's not a bird person was appalled by this too. Conditions were terrible. It was advertised in Bird Talk of all places. This was years ago and it is no longer in operation. To think of places like the two stores in Jersey that I'll keep nameless to avoid another store wars on here are on the level of what I saw that day is just plain stupid.

Like 2horse said. Education is the key to everything.

I was a bird breeder for over 15 years and only got out of it due to asthma. At one time we had almost 150 birds including pets of course. They ALWAYS got the best food, they all got vet checked once per year with a mobile avian vet that came to the aviary. Every single one of them including the smallest one's such as parakeets, etc got beak and feather disease testing, polyoma testing and psittacosis testing along with CBC's and gram stains. I literally spent thousands upon thousands of dollars to make sure all of my birds were 110% healthy and we had a closed aviary system.
Even though they were our breeder birds they were still very much loved, I wanted the best of everything for them and loved them all dearly. The babies were raised with tons of love, toys, vet care, etc and were truly only sold to those with a true knowledge of bird care and those that would provide the same care as I had given them. I refused to sell to people simply because I didn't like the things they said. I would rather keep a bird then sell it to someone that I knew wouldn't provide the best for it. Not all bird breeders are bad, I was one of the good one's and I knew many that were also good. Of course there were also very bad one's but the same applies to everything in life. If people didn't breed birds then it would become much, much harder to have the birds we all love so much. I NEVER bred for profit and I can honestly say because of how our birds were cared for and the vet care provided we really didn't make much money at all.
I am no longer a breeder, maybe someday in the future I would like to have a couple of pairs of birds that I could spoil rotten and enjoy raising the babies but again they would only go to homes that I know they would be totally spoiled. I am extremely picky when it comes to that but I have the right to be that way.
I wish people wouldn't view all breeders as bad, some are very good and only have the best intentions in mind. I think it's being very judgemental to lump any group of people together and say they are all alike. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are all individuals and we all view things differently, some are in it of course for the money but many others are in it truly for the love of the species and to provide joy to others so that they may experience what it's like to live with an incredible parrot. I know mine make me smile everyday and be glad that i'm alive. Just my two cents.

Since I'm in a rush as usual, a quick answer. NO it's not fair.

And second, Peta never said "better dead than fed" that I could ever find.

It's a slogan made up and opportunized by anti PETA people who decided to use that to gain public support. In a decade I am unable to actually find ONE real "activist" who said that phrase LOL. It's a catch phrase that never really existed.

Just for fun google it if anybody cares. All the hits say "Better dead than fed, PETA says" but the authors are always anti peta people. I cant find where PETA said it LOL.

Now even if they did, they would be referring to the "downer cow" situation of factory farmed beef and the horrendous conditions of chickens in battery cages and open barns with forced molting etc. So in that respect I completely agree it's better to be "dead" than kept alive under those conditions only to be "fed" anyway.

If you have a strong stomach go Google downer cows an extremely sad thing, but I wouldnt if I were you, it'll ruin your week if not your month. And you REALLY dont want to read about how pigs are treated, an animal with an iq higher than a dog. Not to mention chickens the worst holocost of animals of all.

Sorry but just gets me crazy LOL.

In the US, Please shop for eggs and animal products with the label "Certified Humane" it's green writing. A small decal in a corner or on the sides. These are animal farms that have agreed to certain standards of compassionate care before and during the slaughtering process. It's not alot more money and you'd be supporting a good thing by keeping their revenue stream going. We even have certified humane eggs now in our supermarkets. Cage free is not humane only the label with the words and logo "Certified Humane". Baby steps that's all anybody makes, just baby steps.

Sorry to go off topic but thought you'd wanna know about the dead than fed deal, Ang

I plan on posting back later when the brats are in bed when I can write a clear thought!

I'm still trying to catch up but can't resist a quick response.

Cindy let me go ON RECORD and tell you that PETA does in fact chant "better dead than bred". I've heard it myself at one of the dog auctions I regulate. Tuesday I was speaking with a colleague that was present at the auction in Wisconsin that got physical. She informed us that PETA chanted that lovely little slogan there as well.

I will be happy to actually videotape the PETA protesters chanting this the next time they attend. They are not present at every auction so I can't give you a time frame.

Note that the auctions I mention are not for downer cows, hogs or chickens either.

Now I'm off to catch up on the topic that started this.


This statement is based on my professional, hands-on experience and is not an opinion.

It could be ...I dont doubt you ...that some "dopes" have adopted that after seeing it all over the internet perhaps. But what I was saying was that it was never a PETA slogan. Not in the sense that the "organization" published it as a point of view. They have alot of slogans but that's not one of them. LIke on billboards, tv, print media etc.

My son was working at a concert once promoting his own business, and a table of supposed Animal Liberation Front kids (which I dont even believe they were) kept showing the Alec Baldwin "Meet Your Meat" video right next to him OVER AND OVER AND OVER again and when he asked them to turn down the volume they got all smart mouthed with him. This went on for three days. It wasnt even necessary because the concert was all the type of kids that were vegan anyway. But you can get that video and set up anywhere.

I contacted Ingrid and pulled my membership because she wouldn't apologise even though PETA itself had nothing to do with it because I am NOT a fan of all outrageousness just to be outrageous.

I'm surprised that you have people chanting better dead than fed if your auctions are not food stock. More goofs, apparently. Maybe "better dead than canned hunt game", or "better dead than worn" but "better dead than fed" doesnt make sense to me at your auctions.

Why would someone chant "better dead than fed" at a DOG auction? Are they being auctioned to be used as food?

Yep more dopes, PETA is not exempt from dopes either, just a small example of the larger world.

WHOOPS it occurred to me you mighta meant better dead than bred since I couldnt figure out what fed had to do with dogs....LOL....and came back to read and saw that is what you said.

Well, that's another matter completely, sorry. As I fully accept and support the concept of not selling dogs at auction and since I wasn't there I can't say what I think about their methods. Sorry.

You can blame "PETA" but seems like the Ohio citizenry has their OWN extreme objections to dog auctions in Ohio. A google shows nothing to do with PETA and everything to do with regular citizens' outrage. So if you say PETA as a generic title like, "kleenex" when you mean tissues, ok.

You have quite a few sites devoted to just this topic of dogs. (but this is a bird thread)looks like the auction is even losing sponsors:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/846327093

PetTheftInfo

What are dog auctions and puppy mills? Help expose the cruel and inhumane conditions these animals are forced to endure, and change the laws!

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looks like the pressure is working according to this thread:

Dogster For The Love of Dog Blog » Archive » Ohio Amish Puppy Mills Move Auction to Avoid Protestors

Dogster For The Love of Dog Blog » Archive » Ohio Amish Dog Auction Was Moving, Now Staying in Same County

We dont have dog auctions in Pa, thank goodness.


Ah, here's one by PETA, took me a few pages to get to on google, it was Oct 20th:
Peaceful Rally: October 20 against Buckeye Dog Auction - PETA - People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals - Care2.com

No Cindy, when I said PETA I meant PETA ok.

The popularity of the auction was not the issue but thanks for all the old links. Cindy you do realize that just because the internet says something, that doesn't necessarily make it true or entirely accurate right?

As for their "peaceful" protest, they didn't protest at the auction this last time. They protested in the heart of the Amish shopping district, 5+ miles from the auction site. Their "peaceful" protest caused 4 separate car accidents inside of 45 minutes involving a total of 13 vehicles.

I had been contacted at the auction and asked to come down and see if I could calm them down after the first accident. The second accident happened seconds before my arrival and the next two happened while I was being briefed.

I left since by that point they were being detained by police.

Whether or not the auction stays or goes is of no matter to me. I'm there because it is my job. I'm not going to discuss it from a moral standpoint which is what you're reading in your links. A moral argument against the auction. Interesting though that you didn't put down any links that had non-biased commentary about the auction as they are out there.

Edited to add...

BTW, the group that coordinated that "protest" listed in your last link did NOT attend. THEY ARE NOT PETA. The lady mentioned in that article is actually one of the activists that is rational.

One more thing. There were no news crews or media present at the auction or at the protest site.

Thanks for all your responses.

Actually the popularity of the auction is the issue for me, when making a case that it is not just PETA people who find it offensive but many citizens.

All I did was google and post the first page of stuff that came up, I was not looking for "non biased commentary".

I would never even bother to debate the moral validity of auctioning dogs. For me it's a no brainer.

Also I wasnt commenting on it being your job or not. Obviously everyone is free to chose whatever job they want. Sorry to hear that being an animal care inspector means you are drawn into peace keeping. Seems to me that's what police are for.