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" I did make the distinction between conservation and pet trade only because there have been some successful re-introductions of Cape parrots here, these birds are specifically and deliberately left wild from hatching. There is also a stud book to ensure that genetic diversity is upheld. A lot of the Cape parrots problem in the wild is PBFD and also habitat destruction, slightly off topic but interesting anyhow."

Yes, I agree, it is very interesting and I think it's fabulous that they were able to re-introduce endangered species into the wild. There are many efforts done worldwide to protect and increase the numbers of species that are in danger of extinction but as we seem to agree that breeders that sell baby parrots for pets do not breed for conservation, we will drop this point from the argument.




"With selling birds or children I thought the point is, it happens, purchased children I am fairly certain are much loved by the new parents, same goes for purchased birds. If those new parents know what they are getting into."

No, I am afraid you are still missing the point. It's not a matter of whether the selling of children happens, it's a matter of whether is legal or moral to do it. Lots of evil things happen every day but that doesn't make them right.




"Saying that there is a overpopulation problem with birds and not to breed is the same as saying because there are many unwanted African and Chinese children, they should have no more. Is it also immoral for these population groups to be having more children? I don't see the difference."

I'll tell you the differences I see off the top of my head (I am sure that there are many more):

1. African or Chinese parents decide themselves to have the children and they are the ones that will raise them - Breeding birds don't keep their babies and don't make any decisions as to their lives, the breeder makes them for them -thus the 'benefit to other than the producer' aspect of the meaning of the word 'exploitation'.

2. African or Chinese parents don't have their children wrenched from their arms while still babies to be fed by an alien species and given to still another member of the alien species to be used as a pet -thus the mistreatment or unfair treatment, etc aspect of the meaning of the word 'exploitation'.

3. African or Chinese parents don't have their children for them to live half a life in the best of circumstances or end up neglected or abused or locked in a cage or a dark closet for the rest of their lives or gassed because nobody wants them and, if they did, we would put the parents in jail. But parrots end up like that all the time by the hundreds of thousands -thus the 'treated as an object' aspect of the meaning of the word 'exploitation'.

It is completely different when a 'first class citizen of the world' (meaning a human) makes a decision (even if we think it's the wrong one) and lives with the consequences of it than when a 'third class citizen of the world' (meaning birds) react out of instinct (breeding) brought on by conditions (breeding is easily controlled) decided by somebody else (the breeder) and the results of the action (babies) are taken away from them to live an unnatural life. I really don't see how you can compare the two... a human chooses to procreate, a bird does not.




"Why call a person a rescue if they don't usually rehome? I am not casting stones but I just see this as collector with a different name. What happens when there are too many birds for the available space?"

Well, I guess it's a matter of semantics. We call ourselves rescues because that is a term that people is used to and understand. I guess it would be more accurate to call ourselves sanctuaries but sanctuaries have a lot of pre-requisites like a cash donation and a complete bill of health with sexing and most people are not willing to spend money on a bird they no longer want so, as we take them in for free (like rescues do) and we are, in truth, rescuing them from bad situations, we call ourselves rescues. But I agree that there should be another word to describe us only I don't think there is.

And the reason we don't rehome is, at least in my case, lack of time and general disgust with people. You, as a breeder, are not aware of this, but you need to go through 1,000 applications with a fine tooth comb, spend hours on the phone checking vet references and conducting interviews and home visits to find one single good home. And people lie through their teeth and don't like it when you question the discrepancies... some are quite abusive and harass you which means you have to spend more time and aggravation with the phone calls cursing you out and the messages with threats left in your machine and the e-mails that start with salutions like 'YOU *****' , etc. etc. Hours of work and aggravation having to deal with all these people to find a single good home for a single bird! In the meantime, months have gone by, the bird has adjusted to his new home, maybe even bonded with you or another bird and would be traumatized (yet again) by been re-homed. As to what they do when they run out of space, again, I can only answer for myself and what I did was stop taking in birds. Sometimes we re-arrange things so we can make a bit more room, if we can afford it, we build another or a larger birdroom, sometimes we move to a larger house, sometimes we give each other single birds so they could be in pairs or in a flock and, on occasion, we re-home (mostly birds that are so deeply imprinted that don't even recognize themselves as birds and need to be with people) but, normally, we just turn on the 'No vacancy' sign and only take in the ones that are in dire need of help while networking with other rescues we trust to find a place for the ones that we cannot take in. Unfortunately, the overpopulation problem in USA been as bad as it is, this means that thousands of birds end up in the wrong places, places where they are not really prepared to care for them like the SPCA or the Humane Society, etc.



"It gets back to my point that if education first, the "bad birdie mill" breeders and wholesale pet shops will be squeezed out and the rescues will not get more birds in. Here parrots tend to stay in the same family since they are often like children of the family. A grey parrot I know is now with the grandson of the original owner having outlived father and son. So the question is "is it fair to label all breeder as exploiters" The overpopulation and commercialization was not caused by all breeders, only those that did not care about the babies they bred."


Sorry, I and everybody involved in rescue or who has done any kind of research or studies on the pet overpopulation phenomenon disagrees with you. We all wish it was that simple but it isn't. Education of the public does not solve an overpopulation problem. It is a proven fact. All we need to do is look at the dog and cat problem here in USA to confirm it. And, mind you, lots of people adopt dogs and cats (and multiples at that) but not that many adopt parrots and people usually keep only one or two of them so the situation is even worse for them. But even assuming that the overpopulation problem was not originally caused by breeders, all breeders are contributing to it now so the point is moot. I mean, it's a matter of mathematics. If a market is flooded and there is piling overstock, stop producing.

And, yes, there are cases of descendants taking over the care of a bird and I am very happy for the bird you mentioned but not all stories have a happy ending. There was a case we heard of just like that, it was an Amazon, if I remember correctly, and the poor animal had lived 50 years in the same cage with the same perch to the point that his toes had become 'frozen' in that position and had severe bumble foot. The rescuer ended up spending thousands of dollars in medical treatment because the bird literally could not walk or climb or anything. And he did get better but he still ended up disabled. And you know what is the worst irony of it all? The family loved this bird to pieces. They really did. The daughter and granddaughter of the original owner cried and cried and cried when they gave him up and called the rescuer on the phone for months after to find out how he was doing...

Well, nutzybirdlady, I am sorry to say that I cannot wish you luck in your venture.

I suggest you volunteer at a bird rescue for a year or so before you start breeding... if you love birds, you will change your mind after the experience. You might also end up with a lot of alexandrines that people gave up due to behavioral problems (the females are real difficult once they reach a certain age and most of them turn into biters).

Ummm, I would prefer it not be about activists or PETA either however Angie introduced it in her original post.....so it was unfortunately very much ON topic...

"The slogan “better dead than fed” gets to me, when I see this I want nothing to do with any rescue / animals rights organization, but I do understand this is the extreme. " (hi Ang lol)

LOL - Trust me when I tell you that some birds are biters and it has nothing to do with how the owners handle or don't handle them, it has to do with secondary sexual characteristics because, in some species, it's the females that are dominant and not the males: quakers, lovies, ekkies and IRN's are the best known ones.

Where are you located, Judy? I am not sure if I am allowed to ask this on the forum but if you really want to volunteer and give me a general location I might be able to find you a rescue nearby. You will love it. It is a very rewarding and enlightening experience for any bird lover.

And I am glad to hear that you are only going to breed them a couple of times. That should allow you to find good homes for them among your friends so you can keep track of them or even keep them yourself.

I have volunteered at a rescue and I have "rehomed" birds. I Thought they should not be allowed to even own birds, and they were a 501c. The other rescue i know of wanted to buy a pair of Lovies from me but had to "sell the B&G they just took in" . So I would say it is not fair to label all of anything as.... I know there must be some good rescues out there.
Jack

Ohhh, I don't know about that, sometimes it's OK... you would not object to labeling all child molesters as sick people, would you?

But I do agree with you that not all rescues can be labeled 'good'. I know of a couple that are not and I don't know that many.