To Clip or Not to Clip... - Page 4

03-01-2007, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~J~

I don't think it boils down to "right" or wrong (simple terms IMO used by some on various boards) & I don't feel it is ok for anyone (for the bird's sake) to simply brush the subject off by saying each of us should do what each of us "thinks" is best for our birds? I also don't believe there will ever be an "equally compelling" reason to clip as there is to not clip. All one needs to do to keep their birds safe (while they enjoy full flight) is to make the effort, take the precautions, spend/make/save the money needed to make it happen and QUIT making excuses why one cannot/will not provide a safe area for their bird(s) to be birds (whether indoors or outdoors). Makes me want to pull my hair out

!!!! LOL.

Maybe one of these days I will understand (but I doubt it) why every bird keeper can't (just by using common sense IMO) simply realize/admit (to themselves at least) that a physically fit bird is more healthy and more happy compared to an unfit bird who is handicapped by clipping, deprived of natural sunlight or proper F.S. Lighting and fed less than a proper species-specific diet (as natural as possible without man made chemicals, dyes, additives, preservatives, etc.).

That is the first step IMO in order to give our birds a chance of being what they were meant to be = for us to realize what is better/best and then to strive our very best to attain/construct the safest, most natural living conditions for them. Doesn't take consensus or studies to come to the conclusion that birds would prefer to fly if they could communicate that in words to all of us. I for one can see that just from their actions when fully flighted. Can't everyone else?

I personally admire bird keepers who (some members of PC fall into this category) currently clip (even though I am totally against clipping) who say something like: "I believe I can't/won't allow my bird(s) to be fully flighted NOW because of this and that but I do realize that they would be best off (more healthy & more happy) if they could fly and I will do everything in my power to get set up eventually to provide that for them. Nuff said for now. JMO.

Joel, I couldn't say it better, so I won't!

03-01-2007, 09:11 PM

Joel, I totally agree with you that a flighted bird is a healthier bird. However, not all of us have the ability to (1) build an outdoor flight (geographical areas in which we live do not have the appropriate climate); (2) keep the kids away from the door and keep it closed at all times (it only takes once). Also, $$ can be a factor, as I know I personally cannot afford to build a climate controlled flight outside; nor would I be able to since the codes in my development will not allow me to build such a structure. I also don't want everyone and their brother knowing I have birds, as the stereotypical criminal-type things these birds are worth tens of thousands of dollars.

I know someone who had a trained, fully flighted Parrotlet - well, he had him until he flew into a pot of boiling fudge.

I think it is based upon the personal situations. I live alone. My birds are flighted. I also know that my front and back doors do not open until my fids are safe in their cages.

I am a member of 911 Parrot Alert. I receive no less tha 10 emails daily of birds who have flown away. With the weather such as it is up North right now, no bird would survive the cold... or the hungry red-tailed hawks.

I totally respect your opinion - and I agree with you. I just don't think it is an option for everyone. Lucky you to live in a nice, warm climate that allows an outdoor flight!

03-01-2007, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvins Mom

I know someone who had a trained, fully flighted Parrotlet - well, he had him until he flew into a pot of boiling fudge.

I

That is truly horrible -- the poor bird!! Due to my birds' ability to use their wings, I do not allow them out of their cages while I am cooking. I think that if one is careful to secure their birds in their cages while cooking, this type of accident can absolutely be avoided and the birds be allowed to keep their wings. I would hate to think that a bird will lose its ability to fly due to something that can be so easily avoided.

03-01-2007, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stizby

That is truly horrible -- the poor bird!! Due to my birds' ability to use their wings, I do not allow them out of their cages while I am cooking. I think that if one is careful to secure their birds in their cages while cooking, this type of accident can absolutely be avoided and the birds be allowed to keep their wings. I would hate to think that a bird will lose its ability to fly due to something that can be so easily avoided.

I agree. When somebody uses something like this as a reason why they clip their birds, I can't do anything but shake my head. DON'T COOK WITH YOUR BIRD OUT, it's that simple! Clipped or flighted! Even a clipped bird if spooked could fly into a pot of boiling water. Especially the smaller guys.

03-01-2007, 09:28 PM

Well, because I have helped with so many lost and founds over the past 16 or so years, I clip.
I can not get a harness on Stirling. A mad 20 something year old 3rd home grey isnt going to stay still to get that on him. With that said, I do think he need the benefits of being outside and getting fresh air. We bought a gazebo for this very reason, but they can escape under the netting.
Sydney, is an extremely buff boy and can fly well with clipped wings. I leaned my lesson after he took off my hand outside, this past summer. If he didnt hit my fence, he would have been gone. No more outside for him without a harness...even tho, I am bloody after I get it on him.
I learned, a bird can fly much faster then a human can run after them.
Emma is fully flighted because of her special ability. She flies like a boomerang. She usually doesnt get to far, but lately her flightpath has increased and she can follow Georges steps pretty good. She has a harness, and is obsessed with getting it off, once its on.
Ollie is Clipped. He also took off with clipped wings. He has a harness too, but attacks when he sees it.
Harley is clipped. He flies like a rock.

Now being in the north east, I know a parrot is not going to survive the cold winter, should they escape starvation and the numerous hawks that are here. I dont live alone. I cant control when and if any escape to the outdoor is opened.

If I lived farther south, which I hope to do some day, I would probably reconsider some things.

Missi, your girl is BEAUTIFUL...and the perfect example that they can indeed fly with clipped wings.

03-01-2007, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stizby

That is truly horrible -- the poor bird!! Due to my birds' ability to use their wings, I do not allow them out of their cages while I am cooking. I think that if one is careful to secure their birds in their cages while cooking, this type of accident can absolutely be avoided and the birds be allowed to keep their wings. I would hate to think that a bird will lose its ability to fly due to something that can be so easily avoided.

I totally agree - and believe me, the guy was horrified and totally distraught. However, accidents can happen. All one needs to do is forget - and we are all human. Heck, I went to work one day and realized I had not put one of my birds back in his cage... so back home I went. My point is not that a bird should not keep his wings because of that; it's more that things can happen and if your household is not "flighted bird friendly", then perhaps clipping should be a must.

How about birds who fiy out the front door and get their sense of freedom and keep going? Imagine what it must feel like to have the talons of a redtailed hawk ripping into the bird's body? These are things that can and do happen.

For the record, all of my birds are flighted; all of my BF's birds are flighted. Last year, he lost one on the coldest day of the year. He threw some peanuts out to the squirrels. Tatoo was gone; out the door - never to be seen again. This was a bird that could take corners at 100 miles an hour and had been flying for several years.

03-02-2007, 02:44 AM

I think it is ultimately up to the humans to provide complete safety for their fids. Even a clipped bird could fly from a cage top to disaster in the kitchen or a nearby aquarium. On Sunday mornings, when I actually attempt to cook breakfast, the birds are in their room. We make sure all ceiling fans are turned off before they come out to play. I do a beak count every morning after I put the vegies in because sometimes the little brats sneak out. If my husband is outside and I want to have the birds come out to play, I lock the screen door so he can't accidentally open it while they are out and he will wait until they are safe before I unlock the door. You just have to get into a safety mode and always be aware of where the fids are.

Having said that, my lifestyle is pretty easy to control. Two mature adults, quiet lifestyle no unpredictable visitors. Other people will have different circumstances. What do you do when the fids are out and you hear your child playing outside scream in pain. You won't think, you will run to your child. Are your children responsible enough to always look where the bird is before they open the door? What if they are distracted by friends? Can you keep your birds in a child-proof room? I don't mean to pick on people with kids but they add a huge unpredictablity factor to bird safety. This doesn't mean that clipping will keep your bird safe under these circumstances but it does mean you have to pay extra attention to the bird's housing and outside time to keep the risk to a minimum.

03-02-2007, 05:25 AM

Joel in Blue:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvins Mom

Joel, I totally agree with you that a flighted bird is a healthier bird. Happier too I hope

However, not all of us have the ability to (1) build an outdoor flight (geographical areas in which we live do not have the appropriate climate); If one doesn't have the physical "ability" or knowledge/aptitude needed, then IMO, one could hire someone who does (or trade time/skills/abilities/talents), in order to construct what is needed (temp. controlled if necessary & safe). (2) keep the kids away from the door and keep it closed at all times (it only takes once). One could/should keep the bird(s) locked up while kids are loose or let the bird(s) out only when kids are at school, visiting friends/family, playing outside (with door locked by bird owner from the inside), etc. or even purchase/build/or borrow (from the birds) a D.M. cage for the kids (LOL)

in which to put the kids while the birds are out playing/flying.

Also, $$ can be a factor, as I know I personally cannot afford to build a climate controlled flight outside Again, "Where there is a will, there is a way" IMO, to include the financial part of doing what is needed - I'll bet you or anyone that I could find ways for almost everyone to tighten their belts and save what is needed. One can even borrow from family or friends or take a loan from a bank or etc., take a second job outside or inside the home, etc. Or as I mentioned above - trade somehing for someone else's services...... Just some possibilities there (in many cases) nor would I be able to since the codes in my development will not allow me to build such a structure then one could hopefully do it inside the home, along a wall or up near the ceiling along a wall? . I also don't want everyone and their brother knowing I have birds, as the stereotypical criminal-type things these birds are worth tens of thousands of dollars. Kathie, I understand the things I mentioned above are not ALWAYS possible for EVERY SINGLE person out there with a bird but they are for the vast majority of bird keepers (from my own personal observations over the last 13 or more years). Those are the people (along with the newbies) I am addressing with my comments and ideas. For the very few who truly cannot CURRENTLY provide the safe space for their bird to be flighted, I personally would just like to hear that those keepers realize what is best/better and will strive to attain that EVENTUALLY - even if it means moving, for the sake of their birds over-all health, happiness and longevity.

Now for the kicker statement that others have also used in the past which I totally agree with: Maybe, just maybe, those who cannot/will not provide what is better/best for their bird(s) should maybe think about re-homing their bird either permanently (with visiting privileges hopefully) or temporarily UNTIL they move or can afford/find a way to give their bird(s) the things which will allow them more happiness and better health which transalates also into a longer life (barring any unfortunate accidents of course).

I know someone who had a trained, fully flighted Parrotlet - well, he had him until he flew into a pot of boiling fudge. Kelly addressed that one.

I think it is based upon the personal situations. I live alone. My birds are flighted. I also know that my front and back doors do not open until my fids are safe in their cages. Cool.

I am a member of 911 Parrot Alert. I receive no less tha 10 emails daily of birds who have flown away. With the weather such as it is up North right now, no bird would survive the cold... or the hungry red-tailed hawks. Therefore I feel we all should be educating these "not-careful-enough" bird keepers rather than telling them to clip/handicap their birds which IMO also translates into shortening their lives. I agree with what many others have accurately mentioned before: There are probably as many or most likely far more birds killed, lost to accidents, poor health, etc. due to them being clipped vs. not clipped.

I totally respect your opinion - and I agree with you. I just don't think it is an option for everyone. I agree (not an option for EVERY SINGLE person currently) but for the vast, vast majority it is (IMO). Lucky you to live in a nice, warm climate that allows an outdoor flight!

I tell you what Kathie, if I heard all this I mentioned above from people in the know (before I purchased a bird) and I knew I could not provide what I am speaking about here, I personally would simply not get a bird but choose another type pet, tropical fish, a plant or even Pet Rock.... JMO.

P.S.: To the overly sensitive people reading this and to some others:
I am just discussing/arguing/debating my beliefs in this thread regarding the interests of everyone's birds. I am not arrogant or trying to force anything down anyone's throat. Just trying to politely present my side of the issue for consideration and contemplation (in the best way I personally know how - forgive me if I fall short according to some here?).....JMO.

03-02-2007, 06:06 AM

Joel said - "One could/should keep the bird(s) locked up while kids are loose or let the bird(s) out only when kids are at school, visiting friends/family,"

If I did this - my birds would only be able to come out of their cages about an hour a day! (if that - I have a 4 yr. old who doesn't go to school - he's home with me 24/7 - and during the summer so are the other children!)

I do agree that the birds are healthier flighted. Honestly though - I don't know that I notice a difference in their happiness level when they are clipped. (I know you'll disagree with me on this - and that's okay!)

Could you explain more about doing some sort of flight cage along a wall or near the ceiling inside of a home? (I know there's no space in my home to do something like that along a wall - we're pressed for space as it is.) I'm not sure I understand how you do something near the ceiling that would be big enough to accommodate flight?

03-02-2007, 06:17 AM

Just a quick thanks to the people who responded to me about bigger macaws flying.