i think that's the key argument IMO - nobody would say that ANY bird living with somebody from this board is unhappy and/or unhealthy by any means... on the contrary - they're spoiled rotten, all of our birds are. guess that's just the type of people we are....
however, i agree with joel on this one - i think they are happier and healthier if they are allowed to fly given a safe environment can be provided. if it's not possible to provide that crucial safe environment, they are still happy and healthy and in a way better situation than a lot of other birds...

when it comes to the regional aspects of clipping - i can't speak for many locations in the world, but valo was my very FIRST bird who came to me clipped (now he's flighted, and i won't be changing that UNLESS i've to bring him on a plane - people have suggested a mild wing clip to work on his behavioral issues but i believe it's only a diversion of the problem and not a solution). anyways, in austria and germany the main tendency is towards flighted birds... wing feather clipping is actually considered cruel amongst many people.... (which does NOT reflect my opinion at all)

anyways - here are my 2 cents for all that's worth.... being in the middle and accepting both ideas depending on the situation it won't be contributing much

Bee.....I agree, I don't think I have heard anyone say that: "Any bird living with somebody from this Board is unhappy and/or unhealthy...". I know I haven't. I have always used the words happier & healhtier - as you stated in your next paragraph which I felt no need to quote.

"Spoiled rotten" does not make for a healthy or happy bird however (not IMO anyway). Look at many of our children today (for example) who are "spoiled rotten". They are out of shape, not very healthy IMO. They may be happy (or think they are) but wait till complications set in down the road and then we will see if either the parents or the kids are happy with doctor visits, huge bills, health conditions, shortened lives, etc.... Same for our birds common sense would cause me to think.

I wish to emphasize that there is no "official" position of this Board on whether it best to clip or not clip. I think debates of this type are invaluable to the advancement of birdkeeping practices.

At the time when I first got into parrots, clipping was not even presented to me as an option, it was a mandate!!! Heck, my first parrot -- Stella, my amazon -- came to me from a petshop at 6 months of age never having even been fledged as her wings had been clipped before she ever was able to take flight!! Truthfully, but for my participation on parrot Boards like PC, I would probably have never questioned the practice of clipping and would have continued clipping all of my birds thinking that was just part and parcel of proper grooming of pet parrots. But it was a thread like this one that I read a couple of years ago that made me aware that clipping is not a "must" and caused me to question whether I should continue clipping my birds. I read the various viewpoints in that thread and then read various articles on the topic by avian experts (some of which were/are available on the internet). I spoke to a few birdkeepers who I respect and asked them about their opinion on the topic. And then I decided that the advantages of allowing my birds full flight outweighed the advantages of keeping them clipped.

I am not posting today in an effort to persuade anyone that full flight is best (although my position on the issue is clear). Rather, my point is that folks should not shy away from discussing this topic on PC. Certainly, discussion of this topic can make one feel uncomfortable due to the passion that so many on both sides of the issue have on the topic. But I urge anyone reading this thread to push past that discomfort and try to look at the issue as dispassionately as possible. Read articles on the topic by avian experts, talk to seasoned birdowners who both clip and do not clip and question them about their experiences, and take a cold, hard look at your lifestyle to determine what you can and cannot reasonably do. And then decide.

We have such a fantastic group of experienced and informed birdkeepers on this Board. I am very grateful to each and every one of you who have stuck your neck out and shared your point of view and experience with all of us. It is only through respectful debates like this one that we can all learn from each other. And btw, Lara, I just want to say that your post about doing the progressive clip on your birds will be of interest to those who do choose to clip. That concept makes a lot of sense to me if a bird is going to be clipped.

I love the passion threads like this inspire, I for one need to remind myself not to post late at night when I am dog tired as I don't "check" myself as well. I get to see that not many people sit happily on the fence as I do. But it does allow me to see where arguements for flighted can work against it and vice versa.

I'm a strong believer in allowing bird to be flighted but find myself somewhat troubled with it in Ariel's case.

I do believe owning birds is unatural for them but still think it is a valid argument to say keeping them flighted is what nature intended. Just because they have lost a great deal doesn't mean they should lose more. I do however think it would be just about impossible to have kids and a flighted bird, that seems like a recipe for disaster.

To ease my conscience I try to give the birds as much of what is natural for them as possible. I take Merlin out several times a week and run with him and encourage him to scream his head off. With Ariel it is a different story. I've allowed her wings to grow in but can't get a harness on her and thus can't take her outside.

She's a much happier bird now that she can fly but she often flies over to a window and looks outside. I used to walk her before her wings grew back so she knows what taking Merlin outside means and it clearly bothers her (she screams until we are out of earshot).

So I find myself torn. Is it better for her to be flighted or is it better for her to be outside and in the sun? I've tried multiple attempts at different harnesses andbehavioural modification to get her used to them but with no luck. She is a very sensitive bird and has always been a bit meek so I don't want to traumatize her.

Right now my hope is that Sally Blanchard might have some luck when I board the birds this summer but for now it bothers me that I can't get her outside.

I probably think to much about it but owning birds is conflicting for me.

Jared, do you provide full spectrum lighting for them? Although it's not as enjoyable for them as actually being outside in the sun, they do benefit from it in the same way.

If it were me in your situation, I'd keep the wings. You could still take Ariel outside in a cage to enjoy the sun, or even build some sort of an aviary for them. I think it'd be especially hard for a bird who's used to flying to suddenly find themselves grounded.

No full spectrum, I just put her at the window. I probably couldn't bring myself to clip her but live in a townhome that I rent so I can't build an aviary. I suppose a travel cage might work but she get's upset when locked up. In two years time I'll buy a home and build an enclosure in the back for them. I was thinking about makign a greenhouse like environment when I have the space.

Oh, tell me about it. I've never felt so conflicted about anything as I do about keeping birds. I love them, and can't imagine being without them, but way down deep my conscience tells me its really not right to have them. They should be wild, and they should be free. We've taken so much from them, and do we have that right? Maybe that's why I don't believe we can ever think too much about them, and try to come up with better ways of doing things to make their lives richer.

Svolk,

As you liked those photos I posted so far, you may like even more the stories behind those photos in Tinkerbell webpages. Those stories might help you to taking even better photos of you and your fid.

Try this as a work-around solution.

http://www.google.com.sg/search?hl=e...G=Search&meta=

or you do a search with any search engin using key words like tinkerbell cag taiwan.

When you get into Tinkerbell main page, check the statistics. I find it interesting more than half of readers are from non English speaking countries. From time to time, a burst of readers will appear from different countries as and when one of them wrote to their friends or bird groups in Russia, Poland, Japan, France etc etc. I then will go to their groups with aid of translator to make contact with them and try to set them at ease.

Of course, not all of them decided to try it this way. But I know for sure that some of them have done so. I hope that they go on to encourage their countrymen to do so as well.

Then there is this CAG chick without foot and to be put down. To cut a story short, his mobility now is much more than those CAGs fully footed.

You do a google search for ' footless CAGs ' and you will get to what I written.

Always better to be flighted psychologically and physically. Flying is the only cardiovascular exercise they can get. Cipped, you have a needy unsatisfied, unfulfilled frustrated individual. Especially if they flew before OMG.

Not to mention its dangerous. Clipped they will try and fly and not have balance or control.

The people I know who do Free Flight outside work during the day. They dont ALL just play with birds all day. LOL Alot of them keep the birds up late, too which is something I always say is bad.

But guess what. NONE of the (accomplished) birds have ANY really bad behaviors that you see with other "tired" birds. No plucking, yelling, hormonal stuff, inappropriate biting nothing.

AND their vets say they never saw such strong healthy birds. AND they are on special diets and NOT overfed or abundance fed. In fact most people would think underfed. Which they arent.

What I'm saying is their lives are about eating, flying and bonding with the human. Even if for a limited time during the work week. And every single person me included feels they would prefer a couple hours of flighted freedom than 24 hours of clipped whatever it is they get...a trip outside or whatever.

Just take them out in a cage if you want them to get sun.

If you want them to fly around a larger spot try and find a gym or something or contact a bird club for like minded people maybe.

I dont think a bird will WANT to trade its wings for ANYTHING. Especially man made reasons.