I feel very out of the loop, my back-up computer had some trouble too so I was completely pc-less...no fun!
Things have been busy at the shop, this was supposed to be slow time and we have pretty much been as busy as ever, which is good but I was looking forward to the down time! Oh well.
I guess I will start with Boyd, he is doing very well, on my shoulder right now. I placed him there so Olive could have her free time, otherwise he chases her with aggression.
Olive is soooo sweet and TIMID and not trusting of me. I swear I have always treated her with the most love and care. If I have her out and spending time with me she will eventually gravitate to me and want to sit on me but she does not want to be handled AT ALL. She does enjoy her bath time, and food. I have had her to the shop and she doesn't seem to like it at all...she looked stressed.
I do so regret trimming her wings, it is done now though and at least it isn't permanant. I really wanted her to bond with me, I felt her growing away from me so I guess it was all I could think to do, some said don't, others said do....
I feel a strong need to say that if I am being honest I don't know if it is working for her here. She has a wild side. I can't believe she was hand fed by you Arty, and then by me!! I can't believe this is the same Olive that took snuggly naps in the crook of my arm every day! If I kept her I would be inclined to let her fly free ASAP because I feel it is in her nature to do so. I also know I would have a very hard time if she were to fly free and not turn up one day. Oh how I wish I had an enclosure for her..she is not a bird meant for a cage and inside a house. I do love her so very much...I really don't know how a hand fed bird can end up this wild and another bird (Boyd) can be found on the road and live in a loft and end up more tame!
I wonder if it is just a fear phase and she may grow out of it...
So, Arty and everyone, what are your thoughts? I really want to do what is right here.

And, by the way, nice to see you back on the board Arty!

I really wish I had an answer for you girl.
I spent valued time with Olive, but then I spent valued time with all of those I hand raised and it seems each take on there own personalities after being adopted.
It is kinda strange how Boyd and Olive are kinda visa versa, but then one could look at it like this.
Boyd was in dire straight, he needed help badly, I noticed when he was here with the other birds he distanced himself from them, as if to say, hey...your okay...but I really want no part of this, kinda a loner, I think Boyd wanted to be back with you from the moment I took him out the door at your shop.
Olive has always had it EASY, she doesn't know hard times, other than when I had to do minor surgery on her, and even that went extremely smooth.
Olive was very cold, if I would have left her in the loft she would have died, but she was way to young to know that, Boyd was old enough to know he was close to the end when you found him, he knows of starvation, he knows of thirst, Boyd knows FEAR.
Olive doesn't, she could be using that knowledge in her favor, she sounds way to independant, as if she doesn't need you.
I would like to reflect on Camilles relationship with her 2 boys Mollie & Mira, Her 2 boys simple don't see her that much, When Camille does find the time to go see her boys, they are eagar to get out of the cage and eager to see her, they thrive to be near her as they both miss her a great deal.
They are children Roxanne, I took Boyd away from you, Boyd saw he was to eat with the rest of the birds and said "now wait a minute, I want my own food like I used to have with my owner".
Boyd was starving and scared, you gave him hope,"You spoiled him", then that was taken away, now that he has returned, you see a different Boyd.
Just a heads up, that could all change just as fast.
You are a very kind loving person Roxanne, both birds will exploit this, Olive is doing so already, Boyd will also in given time.
I visited a Racer Loft oneday, all these birds came flying to the owner, as if they desired to be near him, I wondered, "how does this person get such attention", "My birds don't do that".
Well Roxanne, this person was using there stomachs to get such attentions, his birds were hungry.
I don't have a set time to feed my birds, they have plenty of seed to eat all the time, yes...they are spoiled and there attitude towords me reflects this.
They are very independant, but this is what I want, I don't want them to know hunger or thirst, I think this is why I am so hurt, so touched when I see a little animal in the wild eat, they eat as if there was no tommorow, I hurt so badly inside to see this, I don't want them to starve and know hard times, so out the door I go to buy another 40 lb bag of mixed seed to offer to them..., just like you would do girl!!!!!
Our kindness is being used against us.
Boyd will take advantage of your kindness over time.
Olive is playing you right now.
I remember my words to you not long ago, so please try and understand what I am about to say.
I don't have expectations from any animal, I love them just as they are, I don't need them to come to me, concerning our Exotics, I don't need to hear them say things or do tricks, Just being able to enjoy there beauty is everything this man can ask for.
You have expectations from your little friends, and this is okay Roxanne, please don't mis-understand me, but please know...usually when a person has such expectations there will be disapointment when not receiving what they want, are your expectations to high, no, but maybe for an animal that doesn't understand such expectations, we humans understand how to meet others needs, animals don't understand these needs.
Please don't mind me, I am blabbing away here, I have missed you, a great deal...so please hang in there....I am not done blabbing yet....
Lets say a person has brought a new bird into there home, the bird has been with another person, lets say he is 3 years old, the person is finding the bird doesn't want to be with them, how does one change this?
By placing the bird in a condition where he needs the human.
This is why you clipped Olives wings, Correct?
Folks find this hard to beleive, but a bird that is allowed to perch higher than eye level, is higher, they will use this height as a tool of surpremacy, thats to much power to offer any bird, all birds wish to be in control, when they fly, they look down and see all those small little figures,,,SMALL...they are dominant, they feel superior.
Work with Olive a little longer, don't allow her out of cage time for a few days, "I Hate to say this", but let her know hunger, "use your own descreation".
When our children do wrong and we ground them for doing so, we as the parent suffer also while we watch them suffer, taking away there freedom to punish them is what we parents do, how often have parents sent there children to bed with no supper?
Gain the upper hand Momma Roxanne, you are in charge.
After you have given it some more time and you are still un-happy with Olive I will come and get her "if you wish".
I just want to give you a heads up, I have several birds here that will be returned unto mothers care this spring, Olive will be one of them.
This is kinda hard for folks to understand, its a false belief that animals that have been hand raised won't survive if returned to the wild, this is FALSE, many racing pigeons thrive in the wild, many exotics also, not that I would ever turn a exotic loose here in North America were they are not native, but a Pigeon can be returned to the wild, and there survival rate is very good.
Olive and others will be released where there are many other Pigeons, she and the others will join up with a feral flock and thus forth be returned unto mothers care.
I only keep injured or Fancy Pigeons here, and even the Fancy ones will be rehomed, I simply can't keep all that come to me, I don't have the room to keep them all.
Its your call...let me know what you want to happen.
Arty

__________________

When all is done that is asked from me and I can fly no higher, I pray this day his hand extends to welcome home a flyer.
Author : http://www.pigeonrescue.com/
Website:http://pigeonworld.informe.com/index...e3a2a754004832
Watch: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...29577913622678
Sign: http://www.all-creatures.org/alert/alert-20070124.html
E-Mail tallship30@yahoo.com

I am a Wildlife Rescue & Rehabber, My Goal, My Oath is to help injured animals, patch up there injuries, determine if they heal properly, my objective is to always, return them unto mothers care, a successful release is always my goal.
Those that can't be returned, stay here with me and I will tend to them for the rest of there lives.
I have but one bird that I have fallen deeply in love with, that's my Fancy Pigeon, The Dunn Lahore and she has a mate, other than these 2, all will be returned to the wild or in the case of the Fancy's, they will be re-homed.
I currently care for 2 injured birds, one is blind, the other has been shot twice, both can never survive in the wild and will remain here under my care.
Even Hope will be released this spring.
There's a great deal of hurt I endure, this has never became easier over the years, I locate a wild feral flock, I search for a good food soarce, Grain Elevators are but one, I assure there is a water supply near by, the Mississippi is one, then I release the birds.
Then I sit down and have a BREAKDOWN.
Why do I do this?
For the love of all wild animals and my faith in Mother.
I am a Wildlife Rescue & Rehab person.
I am.............
BrokenWing

Thanks Arty for a fresh perspective on things. I didn't look at it that way and it does make a lot of sense. She is very well fed and doesn't want for much so I can see how in her mind she doesn't need to put herself in a place she doesn't want to naturally be in with me. I feel like such a "pet" person here, but lets face it, I am in the industry and I might have a certain mind set because of it. My dad is a naturalist and I even lived on a nature center much of my childhood so I do have a strong connection with nature too, I guess my instincts are a little out of touch.
I am glad I have some new things to think about now and I think it will help. I was kind of feeling like a failure.
Olive is a beautiful independent bird (I still think she's a she)...I just want what she would want...I do believe she would want to fly. I now understand why pigeon owners are pulled to allow them to free fly, I always said I could never do it but there is a hauntingly strong urgency towards giving her that freedom.
That being said, I don't know if I should keep her & let her fly or have you release her with a group or look for another home entirely. I am thankful for time to think/pray about it.
Thanks Arty for giving me a fresh perspective. She really is a joy and a sweet soul...I do love her...just as she is.

I don't have much to add to what Arty said. Just know that I'll be thinking about you and Olive, and hoping for the best- whatever that may be.

I know you do Roxanne.
Olive is welcomed here, please know this.
I remember how much you missed Boyd, I simply don't want you to hurt like that again concerning Olive, only you know what you feel would be best.
Please know I am here for both of you.
Arty

I pray I have not offended you Camille.
I admire the way your 2 boys desire to be with you, They do miss you a great deal.
I know its hard to find the time needed to visit them, you are burning the candle at both ends right now with school and all.
I pray your world will have more relaxing time for you in the future.
You deserve it.
Sometimes we humans need to be away from those that we love so dearly, this helps us to remember just how dear they are to us.
Sad...but real...

Very interesting thread.

How do we realise what we truly want from our pets?
~ Tame & trained or all the way to the other extreme, wild.
~ See what is needed for balance.

What do we ask of them, that is maybe too hard?
~ some pet's personalities define how well they adapt. My old cat was from a bunch of feral barn cats. She up & decided, at 4 months old, the house was the best bet. How did that happen? Her siblings never followed.

What time & thought are we prepared to put in, to realise the goals we set?
~ My Rio is a handful - like Olive no doubt. Sure he could be better trained & tamer - probably/undoubtedly. But I have many things to do that are on a higher priority. He's happy & healthy - so I have to stop wishing he was tamer, or set things in motion to change it myself. Rio is perfectly happy with how things are.
There might come a time when I can train him more - after all Laker was very easy to teach & he was mature.


When I had my duck & crow it was a tough call for me as a teen to release them back to the wild. I realised that my life was not their life & they had a pretty decent opportunity in the wild. I miss them & part of me wishes I'd kept them. I am happy I did not.

I wish for you that you can relax and enjoy your Pigeon flock & see/review how much they need to be 'free'. Those happy to stay, will. Clipping her~ many have done this when confused & it isn't forever as you know.

All the best

thanks Arty and everyone. Very helpful posts and food for thought.
I will keep you all posted.