Ok, I have a new diagnosis for Cleo: SEVERE case of cage territorialism.
She'll stepup on my hand most everywhere now except her cage and the manzanita tree stand. These are home "homes". I have had a rough past two days getting her on my hand from either place as she has seemed to have gotten worse than she was.
At first, when I had some success with hand stepups, she'd let me get her off her cage pretty easily SOMETIMES. .Not all the time, but everynow and then.
Now, she either runs from my hand or downright attacks it. Same thing for the tree in the living room.
All the other time, she's a dollbird. One time today, she even flew to my arm.
What's odd is that she'll let me hold a hand perch in my hand, she'll stepup onto it and then immediatly standing in the same place, transfer her to my hand and she's cool.
It's my hand approaching the "home" apparantly is what is sending her over the edge. The same hand she loves to lay her green head in.
So, I guess I'll just work with it this way for awhile and keep a hand perch by each "home". My right index finger and wrist is reallly sore with a few smart punctures on it. It's hard to know what to do cause when she first let me start getting her on my hand good, she'd grumble a little, beak a little then stepup. So, that "beaking" a little today all of a sudden went to a downright bite....when I was expecting a beak..
This is also the place where you don't know what to do. If you continue allowing her to stepup only on the perch on her cage/tree you are "conditioning" her to that and she'll never get used to a hand.
On the other hand, if you push her too hard with a hand, you have sore fingers like I do tonite AND you risk busting the trust you've worked so hard to get.
Different trainers will tell you different things. Some will say FORCE her on your hand a couple of times and she'll get over it. Get a bandaid.
Others say gradually step her into it and she'll do better.
This is where the extra star is coming in for me.

ouch....Mark

Oh Mark. I wish I knew what to tell you. Question though, are you letting Cleo play on top of her cage? Or on the outside of the cage? If so, I would suggest stopping that. Some birds, not all, tend to become territorial with their cages if their allowed to do so. I never let Ryan play on his as that was one of my fears.

As far as the tree, well now that's a tough one. Sorry!

I was just talking to a woman about this exact issue with her grey. I suggested that she do a couple of different things, and this might help you.....

One she was trying to get the bird to step up as soon as she got home and the bird would refuse to step up and bite. So I suggested to help the bird get rid of any pent up energy from being in the cage by getting the bird as riled up as possible, but with out touching the bird. We all know what can happen if one messes with a riled up bird! Any way the goal was to get the bird tired out by talking ,screaming, dancing...whatever works. And than to let the bird completely calm down from all the excitement. So there was no more excess energy to react on when being asked to step up. After the bird calmed down than try to get the bird to step up. If this resulted in a bite than walk away and try again later.

In combination with this she installed a half perch on to the door, so that the bird stepped up on the half perch and than to the owners arm as opposed to climbing to the top of the cage and instantly going into cage territory mood.

And than with all that, treats were only to be given on the play stand and if the bird wanted the treats....she had to step up to get to the stand to get to the treats.

So far this has worked wonders for her, so it might prove helpful to you.

As for getting Cleo off the stand I would approach it in one of two ways, I would use an extra special treat and let her see you put it in her cage than ask her to step up. Giving her a reason to cooperate and want to go back to her cage, and/or I would get her to fly to my arm and land there and get a treat for that, than walk her to her cage.

Hope this helps!!!!

That sounds like a hilarious antic but, what the heck, if it works give it a try.


Mark, if you leave the cage door open will he come out and back in on his own?

Many Amazon specialists that I have read say that cage protectiveness is hard-wired in Zons, and you can't really change it. They are designed to defend their nesting sites and home territory, and that's that. Now, they are usually talking about male Zons. Females? I dunno, maybe you can do something with them, but I don't think that's a battle that I'd put high on my list. That's what stick training was designed to alleviate, and if the hand-held perch works, I'd be satisfied with that. Then again, you're dealing with Cleo, who's bites don't always result in ripped flesh, like Chico's do!

Kimba's suggestions sound interesting too, and are worth trying.

Oh yea, she'll do just that.

I suppose I could just back away and leave this alone and be satisified with it as is. I could just get two perches; one for the tree and one for the cage.
Because once she is stepped up from either onto a perch, she easily
gets on my arm.
But, the reason I am hesitant about that is that I fear she'll just
become conditioned to that method only and ALWAYS bite the hand on
stepup from the cage. And since I plan on havng her the rest of my
life, I'd sure like to be able to just get her on my hand and be done
with it. Cause once she's out, on my arm, she is fine. It's crazy, I can step her up on a perch standing in the same place where she bites down hard on flesh. Step her up, get her on a perch, transfer to my arm and she's fine. Doesn't try to fly back to the cage or anything.
Also, I fear that if I allow this behavior at all, she may move that
thought/conditioning of biting into other areas and I loose trust in her.
That'd be aweful.